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2003/09/16, 03:04 PM
I am getting very confused about this. I see over and over here that you cannot do both at the same time. Then what is it I am doing if I am on a fat loss eating plan and still busting my hump lifting as heavy as I can at the gym 4 times a week? Oh, plus 3-4 cardio sessions? I think I need one of those scientific explanations....bbfit1, are you there?
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~Victoria~
...There are no shortcuts to any place worth going.--Beverly Sills
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2003/09/16, 03:29 PM
If you are trying to lose fat, then you have to eat for it. If you are trying to gain, you have to eat for it. In any instance, you have to work out hard to either maintain muscle so you have a better muscle to fat ratio and have that hard body, or to gain more muscle for mass. If when dieting, you slack on your workout, like use lighter weights, etc., your body will adapt to that and with the reduced caloric intake, will utilize some of the muscle you have since if figures you don't need it anymore, the muscle isn't being used as much, so it breaks it down for aminos for glucose(fuel). This is why it is such a disaster to folks who still abide by the old "wisdom" of using lighter weights with more reps when dieting.
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Great people never want it easier, they just want to be better!
Ron
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2003/09/16, 03:46 PM
This is probably the bottom line....another way basically of what I said above... When your muscle mass drops, your metabolic rate slows with it! Secondly your thyroid gland which is responsible for how quickly our bodies process food will basically shut down on you which will completely cancel out the effects of your low calorie diet. Therefore you stop burning fat. Then when you raise your calories back up to even your old maintenance you start gaining a ton of fat. So, keep working hard, you are doing great, it is easy to tell by your posts.
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Great people never want it easier, they just want to be better!
Ron
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2003/09/16, 04:10 PM
Have you seen the Aflac commercial with Yogi Bera and the duck? Remember that last confused quack from the duck and the expression on his face?? OK I'm the poor duck. I don't understand. QQQQQQQUUUUUUUAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKK??????????
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2003/09/16, 07:37 PM
When you diet, without lifting weights, just diet, your body will of course lose as much muscle mass as it will fat, if not more, which is its prefferred "fuel" source. So, you actually have made your lean tissue to bf ratio even worse. So, if you and when you start eating again, you attract even more fat, and it gets worse and worse. Muscle burns fat, and the more lean mass you have, the more fat you are normally burning, and the higher your metabolism becuase of it. Now, applying that to weights, if you have X amount of lean tissue, and you do X amount of strength training normally, if you start to diet, and drop your weights in favor of more reps or something, the body decides that well, the amount of muscle they had isn't needed as much anymore, and adapts to what you are now doing by breaking down lean tissue for more glucose(fuel), because it prefers that source, and it is easier to use. So, there goes much of your fat burning furnace, and kind of defeats the purpose. I hope this is what you are asking, trying to explain in "laymans" terms as not to confuse.
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Great people never want it easier, they just want to be better!
Ron
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2003/09/17, 02:16 PM
Ok, so I guess that is why someone who just diets and loses huge amounts of weight can still have a high BF%? Because they haven't kept, or added, any muscle?
And just to make sure I am getting this right; even though I am on a fat loss 'diet', I am still gaining muscle because I am lifting heavy/to failure. And I should stay on this eating plan until I have my body fat down to a reasonable % before I worry about muscle mass?
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~Victoria~
...There are no shortcuts to any place worth going.--Beverly Sills
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2003/09/17, 02:36 PM
I got to say, azredhead, you do grasp things quickly. :>}
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Great people never want it easier, they just want to be better!
Ron
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2003/09/17, 03:16 PM
<big smile> Why thank you bb1, I do my best.
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~Victoria~
...There are no shortcuts to any place worth going.--Beverly Sills
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2003/09/17, 03:39 PM
Thanks for the thread Victoria. Between you and Ron its clearing up a bit.
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2003/09/17, 05:17 PM
Clear as mud, right?
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~Victoria~
...There are no shortcuts to any place worth going.--Beverly Sills
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2003/09/18, 05:14 PM
Hey bb1fit could you take a look at my post in the intermediate/advanced forum? Az has been a great help and she clued me into this thread which has somewhat helped. I'd appreciate it if you could give me your professional opinion :) Thanks
Here's the thread...
http://www.freetrainers.com/FT/jsp/Message.jsp?f_ix=1&t_ix=1356
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2003/09/18, 07:51 PM
I think many times that your body looks at itself in terms of survival. Way back before there was a Mc D's on every corner, winter and droughts were ugly for folks. Life over limb. Your body looks at it in terms of what it can afford to lose. If you're not using your muscle, it's expendable. It weighs a ton and is expensive in caloric terms to maintain. Also, when your body uses muscle as fuel, it also eliminates the expense of maintaining it. However, if your muscles are involved in intense exercise, muscle is no longer as expendible. It is no longer the best choice to use. It comes down to your body trying to preserve itself.
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Think you can or think you can't; either way you're right--Goethe
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2003/09/18, 10:06 PM
Excellent post effalunt.
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Quoting from effalunt:
I think many times that your body looks at itself in terms of survival. Way back before there was a Mc D's on every corner, winter and droughts were ugly for folks. Life over limb. Your body looks at it in terms of what it can afford to lose. If you're not using your muscle, it's expendable. It weighs a ton and is expensive in caloric terms to maintain. Also, when your body uses muscle as fuel, it also eliminates the expense of maintaining it. However, if your muscles are involved in intense exercise, muscle is no longer as expendible. It is no longer the best choice to use. It comes down to your body trying to preserve itself.
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Great people never want it easier, they just want to be better!
Ron
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2003/09/18, 11:45 PM
I'm kind of confused here and also had this question in mind. Currently, I've been exercising 5 days a week doing both cardio and weight lifting daily. I've recently started my weight loss program a month ago. I'd like to lose the fat but in return gain a little muscle. Will that fat turn into muscle? I'm a little bit on the heavier side so will my body be all big after doing it a few months. I just want to tone my body up. Thanks.
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2003/09/19, 02:12 PM
Fat will not turn into muscle, but you can replace it for muscle by eating properly and exercising hard. What your body does depends on what your regime is like. Are you doing a lot of cardio and light weights? That will help rid you of fat, but won't do much for building muscle, and the more muscle you have the faster your metabolism. And that is what you need to burn calories. If you cut the cardio back to 3x a week and lift heavier, sometimes to failure then you will gain muscle. Muscle weighs more than fat so you may not see the scales go down like you want, but take your measurements and watch the mirror. I have quite a bit of BF so as my muscles are growing I seem to get bigger before I get smaller. It all seems to work in cycles. Muscle growth, fat loss, muscle growth, fat loss and so on. There is a lot of great information here if you take the time to read it. Good luck.
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~Victoria~
...There are no shortcuts to any place worth going.--Beverly Sills
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2004/01/24, 10:16 PM
Alright someone help me out here. This is the problem, I want to get cut in a month or so but at the same time, I'm trying to gain as much muscle as possible in the shortest amount of time. Now I know it is very hard to gain muscle while getting cut, so I guess I need to know what to do and eat without losing any muscle.
I have the new encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding by Arnold, I read it front to back, and according to the book...you're basically supposed to eat a ton of protein (at least 1 gram per pound of body), low fat (20% of total daily caloric intake, and reduce your carbs as far as possible without going into ketosis to lose as much body fat as possible without risking the loss of muscle.
Sounds alot like the atkins diet. Alright this is where I'm confused. On freetrainers, if I change my nutrition plan to any of the three choices (gain muscle mass, fat loss/tone up, progressive gains), It still says to eat over 400grms of carbs. Protein is high, the only thing that seems to fluctuate is the fat grams. So which one should I follow? I've been following the gain muscle mass plan for a while now and I gained a ton of weight from it (20lbs of muscle)..however, I'm starting to lose the tone I used to have. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I want to get alot bigger than I am now and possibly compete one day but if I can't diet properly to lose fat...all the gains I've made would be lost.
-Adam
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2004/01/24, 10:30 PM
Hank, its really complicated. About the best I've been able to do is cut about 1% body fat per month. You have to create a caloric deficit to cut. I am sure you know and understand that.
Read as much as you can stand in the diet and nutrition sections. BB1 and asimmer really have helped me figure out a little more with their writings.
If you have established your baseline daily caloric requirements, then you need to adjust your daily intake downward in 250 cals per day increments for a week and see what happens.
While doing this you can increase the intensity of your workouts. Mix cardio with hiit and see where you are.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/24, 10:40 PM
So, let me see if I get all of this straight...in somewhat general terms.
To gain muscle mass you need to take in more calories than you normally require to maintain your current weight, thus creating a calorie surplus.
To lose fat you need to take in less calories than you normally require to maintain your current weight, thus creating a calorie-deficit.
In both instances you need to be eating clean (natural foods), and working out (weights / cardio) hard - heavier weights (??)- to either initiate new muscle growth or to make the muscle you already have more indispensible.
Does this sound like I'm on the right track? I'm currently on the muscle-mass gaining part of all of this, but want to be sure I know what I have to do once the gaining is over and the cutting begins.
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2004/01/24, 10:43 PM
That sounds perfect to me TRad.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/26, 08:53 PM
Thanks Charlie, I'll read up more and give that a try. I just wanted to get the right diet before I actually started dieting so I can preserve muscle mass.
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2004/01/26, 09:00 PM
Very good thinking Hankmeister. You need to be at your maintenance level for a week or 2 at least, to start your dieting correctly. Cut no more than 250 calories per day for 2 weeks, this should elicit a nice loss, within 2 weeks the losses will probably cease, as this has now become your maintenance level. Reduce by 250 again for another 2 weeks, and let it run its course. Weeks 5-7 cut again, but try to use some exercise increase as part of your deficit rather than cutting too much more food. After this, your body will pretty much be catching on to what you are doing, so an increase to keep T3 hormones(thyroid output) functioning properly and metabolism from slowing down, and increase may be in order for a week. This will fool the body and keep things running smoothly. Then go back to your reductions again, and the body should respond. Good luck, hope this helps.
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Quoting from HankMeister:
Thanks Charlie, I'll read up more and give that a try. I just wanted to get the right diet before I actually started dieting so I can preserve muscle mass.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2004/01/26, 09:00 PM
Its kind of complicated guys. You can see what a moron I am bby reading the thread from the top. BB1 has been very patient with me.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/27, 12:45 AM
This is gonna be tough...it's so much easier gaining weight. Hey bb1fit, what do you think about the type of diet I mentioned earlier:
"I have the new encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding by Arnold, I read it front to back, and according to the book...you're basically supposed to eat a ton of protein (at least 1 gram per pound of body), low fat (20% of total daily caloric intake, and reduce your carbs as far as possible without going into ketosis to lose as much body fat as possible without risking the loss of muscle."
It seems kinda harsh to me. If I don't follow this, should I simply reduce the amount of calories like you said but maintain the same ratio of protein, fats, and carbs? Also, what do most body builders follow to maintain low body fat %?
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2004/01/27, 01:31 AM
This is something I'm interested in knowing as well. I'm in the gaining phase and will be switching over to cutting around mid-march for about6-8 weeks
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2004/01/27, 03:15 PM
Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle by Tom Venuto. This book goes over all of this in EXTREME and precise detail and then some. I downloaded it this weekend and highly recommend it!
It costs $39.99 and is the best $ I have spent on fitness in quite sometime, if not ever.
(plus it helps me understand all of bb1fits' awesome responses now!) lol
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2004/01/28, 02:43 PM
eh 40 bucks for an e-book? Why is there not a real book for this?
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