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2003/05/11, 09:45 PM
got a question for you powerlifters out there. im thinking of getting into martial arts (jiujitsu specifically). ive been lifting religiously for 3 years, 4-5 days a week 2parts pr/day 6 excersizes total;(although i should be doing a better job with my diet). ive seen big strength gains, some fat loss (as ive increased cardio to compensate for my not so good diet..not that bad a diet just could be better). currently im 5'9 about 175 with not too much body fat and a good amount of muscle. so here comes the big question.
with jiu-jitsu strength is a MUST (how else can you break limbs..not that i would but..). what i want to do is get a BIG jump in overall power/strength/muscle WITHOUT a big jump in overall size (i dont want to be too wide/bulky for my height, just solid AND defined). as bluntly as i can put it, when i get this strength i want to get hard not big. any suggestions for excersizes that will help me? diet advice will help too (i need it). thanks...
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2003/05/12, 08:35 PM
When you say Ju-Jitsu I'm assuming you're talking about Brazilian Ju-Jitsu. If not disreguard my message.
SIZE and Strength are NOT NOT NOT important in Ju-Jitsu. In fact the art is based on a smaller man fighting a much larger opponet. I'm currently a 3rd degree blue belt in Brazilian Ju-Jitsu (under Royce Gracie) and beleave me size is not important. What is though is you technique. You can be the strongest dude on the planet and if your technique sucks the only thing that's going to break is your jaw, from the dude your fighting with's hand.
It only takes about 15-20 lbs of torque to break an elbow joint, 15 lbs to break an ankle joint, and about 40-50 lbs to break a knee joint. Watch a Royce Gracie fight and you'll see him whoop some of the biggest dudes on the planets butts. And he's 6'0" 175lbs, some of his opponets are 300-350. They definitely have the strength advantage and he Royce Gracie always won.
If you want to work on something that will help your ju-jitsu work on your flexability. You'll need it to make it far in Ju-jitsu. Also, getting bigger and stronger will not HURT your ju-jitsu but Strength is not a must, you never want to muscle your opponet, out smart yes, out work yes, but never should you rely on your physical strength alone when it comes to Ju-Jitsu.
I hope this helps, if you have any other questions reguarding Ju-Jitsu I'll be glad to answer them
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Justin
Work hard, Play hard, Stay hard!
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2003/05/13, 01:35 AM
agreed. i know form and technique is more important than sheer power, but i also know if you dont have the strength to take down a larger opponant youll wind up in the guard alot. of course thats where we train, but id also like to be in the mount (full preferably) sometimes to practice striking. as such, id like some more explosive power to do some double legs or something. by the way any idea why royce left pride and ufc? ive seen alot of his fight and although they were slow on the action side he was good at technique. was he just getting to old or something?
so any powerlifters have any ideas to build explosive power? mainly for legs (for takedowns)...wrestlers comments welcome.
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2003/05/13, 12:04 PM
Besides weights, look into plyometric exercises. These will give you the explosiveness you're looking for...
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2003/05/13, 04:01 PM
And don't forget good old squats. Strong quads, glutes and hams will equal greater explosiveness. Be sure to train your calves heavy as well, they are instrumental for explosive power also. Good luck.
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2003/05/15, 08:13 PM
Royce stopped fighting in the UFC and Pride because he perceives the rules as being against a ju-jitsu fighter. He believes that restarting a fight once its on the ground do to a perceived lack of action is not fair to a ju-jitsu fighter. Also, the round system in the UFC and Pride favors a stand up style of fighting. And after a person wins 3 of the first 4 ufc's what more does he have to prove?
Personaly I think Royce Gracie was a little over rated. His family started the trend of ground fighting but now a days a pure ju-jitsu fighter will not win. You've got to cross train in order to win now a days and, I believe, Royce is a little old to try and start incorperating Muai Thai or Silat into his fighting system.
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Justin
Work hard, Play hard, Stay hard!
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2003/06/01, 10:06 PM
What do you guys think about shotokan karate? I've been doing that shkeef for a while and would like to know your guys opinions on its effectiveness, fight-wise.
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My family thinks I'm on steroids... :D
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2003/06/06, 02:15 AM
look out for my boy Kevin Randleman, he is no joke. I do have to agree with oxdp's comment. UFC has changed its rules to benefit a striker. The original rules in Gracies days were no rounds so once it hits the ground, it'll stay that way indefinitely. Those Gracie fights showed how boxers, and strikers could not touch a grappler, but they were also boring most of the time. You would watch it for 18 minutes of nothing and then all of sudden it would end with Gracie putting someone in an armbar. Sometimes I wanted to just see Gracie get knocked out cold. He is a skilled fighter but definitely the least exciting fighter to watch. Tank Abbot, Kevin Randleman, The Shamrock's and Tito Ortiz are the more exciting fighters.
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2003/06/06, 08:47 AM
pleyroy: go to www.24fightingchickens.com and then click on the link 'shotokan planet' at the bottom of the page.
its a great shotokan karate site, and it'll tell you what you want to know. it also compares different martial arts with each other.
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2003/06/08, 10:07 PM
In response to the original question on training I would like to offer some advice. First & foremost in combative sports speed is king, the faster, more explosive athlete will almost always prevail. This is because when speed is applied to strength it generates momentum & momentum equals more force. With this in mind your function should not be on limit strength alone but more on developing speed strength. In general this can be accomplished using lighter weights for about 12-16 repswith the focus being put on moving the wieght as quickly as possible in the concentric portoin. also you should incorperate more ballistic movements such as olympic lifts & possible utilize some high intensity interval training (HIIT) for cardiovascular work. Basically to utilize HIIT, you should make your cardio brief & intense, followed by a short rest, then repeat. I would alternate a 6-8 week speed training cycle (as listed above) follwed by a 4-6 week strength cycle focusing primarily on heavy compound movements for each bodypart cosisting of sets of 4-6 reps with at least 2-3 minutes inbetween sets. Hope this helps & good luck with your taining.
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\\"Knowledge & persistence is all one needs to succeed\"\
---Patrick L.
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2003/06/10, 09:26 PM
Check out www.Bullshido.com if you've got questions about martial arts. We work hard to dispell BS myths in the martial arts.
In fact, I've got a video of a BJJ guy snapping the arm of a Shotokan stylist in a challenge match. The Shotokan guy got owned. Tons of videos like that on my site.
I train Submission fighting, which is basically BJJ, mixed with Catch style wrestling, Muay Thai, and Boxing. I was actually coming to the forum to ask about a good strength training workout for this (aside from Deadlift, Squat, Bench, Repeat), so it's funny I found this thread.
As far as Royce goes, the sport evolved. No longer are fighters one-dimensional like they were when he went in and cleaned house. "Strikers" or punch/kick guys train in takedown defense, submission defense, and the guard, and BJJ/SubFighter players train in the successful forms of standup fighting (Muay Thai, Boxing, Kyokushin Karate).
Most forms of Karate, TKD, and a lot of Kung Fu (minus San Shou, and a few others) are garbage for fighting a trained mixed martial artist/sportfighter. That's why you don't see them in the ring.
Anyway, strength helps a lot, AFTER you've mastered technique. It's great when you can muscle a guy into an arm triangle/scarf choke. It's even better when you let him muscle himself into it.
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2003/06/10, 09:28 PM
Oh, by the way, WORK YOUR NECK!
Can't stress that enough. There was a guy just a little while longer that was training with the Takada Dojo in Japan (home of Gracie "slayer" Sakuraba who beat 4 of them including Royce) who's now paralyzed from the neck down from taking a throw the wrong way. You can't always prevent this kind of thing, but a strong neck will stop a lot of it.
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2003/06/14, 04:29 AM
If ju-jitsu is a grappling art (which I think it is), this presents me with a moral quandry. The most important factor in grappling is muscular endurance - being able to maintain a muscle contraction for as long as necessary. I this case, a program of heavy slow concentrics (which I recommend almost exclusively in this situation) would seem like the best option. Power and speed would really only be necessary to close the distance between you and your opponent, but I think drills would train that better than a specific resistance training style. Anyone else care to comment?
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2003/06/17, 09:25 PM
You've got to have some explosive power in grappling, and especially in Mixed Martial Arts, specifically. Otherwise, your takedowns/shots will be slow and weak, and you won't be as good at exploding out of bad situations such as poor position, and submissions.
Besides, everyone needs punching and kicking power in the sport nowadays, or you're easily dealt with by someone who's got a combination of striking and grappling.
But as far as I'm concerned, and I'll say it again: the best conditioning for grappling (or hell, just about anything needing muscle endurance) is full out, balls to the wall, grappling.
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2003/06/18, 03:01 PM
Phrost - obviously my ignorance on the sport itself is limiting my ability to give advice.
Perhaps a general power sports program combined with endurance work would be best.
Phrost, you're absolutely correct that actually performing the sport is the best way to improve. No amount of conditioning can substitute for practice.
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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