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Anyone else find this difficult?

arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2004/10/06, 09:16 PM I began a new powerlifting program a few weeks ago and am having much trouble, especially on Wedesdays. Wednesday is Deadlift, Power Clean, and back/biceps day for me. It is so hard for me because we run a lot in 4th block and after deadlifts the power cleans suck! Then my forearms are kinda tired from all the back and stuff, that my bicep workout is merely alright. Ok, so here's my question, does anyone else find it so difficult to work out muscle groups together such as chest, shoulders triceps or back and biceps?? I feel it takes away from my workout and am looking for new strategy. -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/06, 09:39 PM as long as the "big muscles" go 1st, u sualy don't bother me. IF you can, do light cleans 1st.......then heavy deadlifts. Next week, heavy cleans, light deadlifts. OR eithe rone of those 2 vise versa. Cleans seem to help me warm up my whole body, and get ready for the dls. IS it possible to not do bis that day? -------------- ......quote the Andrew....nevermore
arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2004/10/06, 10:55 PM Thanks for the clean/deadlift advice Andrew. My problem is on Bench I'll have a good workout, then Incline I do ok, by the time I get to decline my shoulders and chest are much more fatigued and military press after that is even worse, then dips and triceps, my weight I could train with goes significantly down. Maybe I burn myself out too much during every exercise. -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2004/10/06, 10:58 PM I think I'm going to do Gatormade's six week jumping program on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays and add some extra upper body workouts into it so I can keep what mass I've gained while I'm shedding a pound or two (conditioning starts next week) and working on explosiveness. -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/07, 10:35 AM ALWAYS do the cleans first. And get heavy with them. Don't use them as a warm-up for deadlifts. Heavy cleans will make you jump higher. Deadlifts are used to develop a great clean. Next thing, You need to have a strong upper body not a super massive upper body. The bigger your top gets the lower you will jump.
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/07, 01:49 PM if he went heavy on cleans would that not fatigue him too much, before he deadlifts? Grip wise and exploveness wise? Alternate what you do 1st around......do incline 1st one week, then bench the other. Thats what I do, seems to help me out a lil. -------------- ......quote the Andrew....nevermore
arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2004/10/07, 07:13 PM Thanks Gator. I seriously doubt I'll get very massive upper body lol I don't tend to get very big (I'm somewhat lanky). I'll just add some bench and stuff in there because the only thing in the 6 week jumping workout is speed bench. -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/08, 11:18 AM He's not training to be a great deadlifter. He wants to jump higher. The clean is the lift that will help him the most so it needs to be first in the training plan. The heavy deadlift does not produce as much power as a lighter clean. This has been measured on the tendo machine. If you want to improve your power then you need to train with the exercises that produce the most power first on a given day. Andrew, I respect your contribution to this board but you are wrong on this subject.
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/08, 11:26 AM I have seen many athletes increase their verts (standing and approach) a lot in the first 3 months doing heavy Olympic movements. I have not seen athletes increase significantly doing just deadlifts. I love the deadlift. It is MY favorite lift but when it comes to jump training it should be a supplement to to the Olympic movements.
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/08, 12:17 PM I was just suggesting -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/08, 12:20 PM I wasn't trying to question you, or what you say, i was asking a question and not trying to make what I suggested "right" -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/08, 12:57 PM You are still suggesting a less than optimal situation for power cleans. So I called you out on it.
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/08, 01:06 PM what less than optimal situation? him doing light cleans before dls?I'm confused now -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/08, 01:09 PM I'm aksing for my understanding, so I won't say somthing wrong again, thats all, not trying to contradict you, I promise. -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/08, 07:40 PM ============ Quoting from bigandrew: if he went heavy on cleans would that not fatigue him too much, before he deadlifts? Grip wise and exploveness wise? ============= The point is we want the cleans to fatigue him a little. Why would he want to alternate the order of cleans and deadlifts when it is the cleans that will make him jump higher? What is exploveness? I don't care if you question me on my knowledge just make sure you are making a valid point when doing so.
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/09, 08:27 PM I wasn't aware, he wanted to increse his vertical, on the powerlifting program he was on. I thought a lighter clean would help with the exploson, from the ground. Would heavy cleans not add more size and bulk to the upper body, there by slowing him down? I under stand the clean is an exploson excersise, hower from my understanding of the jump, is that you knee needs to be at it's strongest angle of force. I read that was somwhere around 45 degrees. I don't know how tall he is, but when I clean my legs are below parallel. And thats when the knee is at the "weakest". This is why, peopel can half squat more, than parallel squat. -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/09, 08:57 PM also somthing else I thought of....... Since you can usually lift more deadlifting, that helps you apply more force to the ground. More force, harder the "push" higher you jump. But a forcful jumps isn't with out exploson and speed.... So by doing a lighter clean, you help with the exploson off the ground. only a thoguht, prolly not right -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/10, 04:12 PM The deadlift trains the same "weak" joint angle that you refer to about the clean. The clean trains full triple extension that the deadlift does not. Ever see an Olympic lifter jump? Compare them to a power lifter. Olympic lifters jump 40 or more inches high in their standing vert. Powerlifters for the most part do not. This is by no means a knock on powerlifting. But if you want to jump higher than you need to train with power cleans. Also, you squat more doing half squats because you are moving the weight a shorter distance. Your clean stance is very similar to the deadlift stance. The biggest difference is the grip. Bar placement is very similar. Hip and knee angles are very similar. Deadlifting will help a newbie jump higher because they are doing something they have never done but if you want to jump the highest you are capable of then you need to Olympic lift. I train elite level college athletes and if I had them deadlift without Olympic lifting their verts would go down. Also, your max clean is a lot lighter than your max deadlift so essentially you are training light because of that.
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/10, 04:20 PM Cleans train the lower body primarily. If you think cleans are an upper body lift then you are doing them wrong. Cleans will add a little size to you if you train them heavy but it is "fuctional" size not body building size. There is also a ton of research dedicated to Olympic lifting and its improvement on vertical jumps. Shane Hammond weighs 350 lbs. He cleans and Jerks 506 lbs. He can standing jump 44 inches on a vertec. That is a 44 inch vertical for a man that weighs 350 lbs. He can perform a standing backflip. You want to train athletes the best to your ability? Then you better know your stuff and just don't quote it from a book.
ursusarktos Posts: 346 Joined: 2004/01/18	2004/10/10, 05:14 PM Found and bumped those 2 threads. Hopefully someone will take the time to read the Nothstein interview this time around. It's another perspective which supports many of the concepts that Gatormade has posted.
arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2004/10/10, 05:32 PM Just curious about something. A lot of the football players at my school and a lot of guys that I've ever seen do cleans don't really do a full front squat after cleaning the weight. Is the full front squat after the clean really necessary for power developement? Because I have a very hard time doing it with "perfect" olympic form. -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/10, 07:10 PM to a half squat to start is ok. It would be a good habit to develop though. Start light and work on getting the full front squat. To catch the heaviest weight possible you will need to develop that skill. Work with light weights for a month or even two then start adding weight.
arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2004/10/10, 09:32 PM Thanks. My problem is my feet turn outward big time upon landing making my position feel very awkward when trying to squat down a lot. Any suggestions on fixing this? -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/10, 10:29 PM cool, thanks alot gator, love to learn new info. Also thanks for dicussing it with me, and nto just telling em to shut up lol btw see ya this weekend at the swamp! -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
ursusarktos Posts: 346 Joined: 2004/01/18	2004/10/10, 10:35 PM How far apart are your feet when landing? ============ Quoting from arondaballer: Thanks. My problem is my feet turn outward big time upon landing making my position feel very awkward when trying to squat down a lot. Any suggestions on fixing this? =============
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2004/10/11, 01:06 PM Feet should start in your vertical jump stance. As you catch jump your feet into a comfortable squat position. It will be different for everybody.
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/11, 01:07 PM get my message gator? -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
bigandrew Posts: 5,146 Joined: 2002/10/21	2004/10/11, 01:09 PM sorry just checked mine -------------- ....I\'m probably in my underwear typing this......or maybe not!
arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2004/10/12, 04:51 PM ursusarktos, they're probly around shoulder width apart when I land -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
ursusarktos Posts: 346 Joined: 2004/01/18	2004/10/12, 07:16 PM Arondaballer, You might want to try landing with your feet slightly wider than shoulder width. Whatever foot placement you feel most stable & comfortable with during a regular full front squat should be pretty close to how you should land during a clean. Also, ditto what Gatormade said about initiating the clean with foot placement similar to that of a vertical jump.
arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2004/10/12, 07:41 PM ok thanks guys....I'll try that on thursday -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
flutterbyeshy Posts: 1 Joined: 2007/10/16	2007/10/16, 12:13 PM im having a hard time understanding everything. I need to be told to do one thing at a tim i cant double task. any suggestions
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2007/10/16, 01:12 PM Your post kind of contradicts itself when you ask for suggestions. Just pick a program and do what it asks. ============ Quoting from flutterbyeshy: im having a hard time understanding everything. I need to be told to do one thing at a tim i cant double task. any suggestions ============= -------------- SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde Mortal by birth. Strongman by the grace of god. Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
retrofish Posts: 118 Joined: 2005/06/20	2007/10/16, 08:16 PM aron - can you post a link of where this program is located on the board?