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2005/06/20, 11:22 AM
A buddy of mine is a walk-on on the UF basketball team, and I mentioned to him my goal to get increase my 275 pound squat as a step towards increasing my vertical. He seemed confused. He said that they never squat more the 225 for about 4 reps. This isn't the only thing I've heard like this. I was reading an interview with Tayshaun Prince's trainer, and the guy said something like "Tayshaun just doesn't have the body type where he'll ever be able to gain weight." What gives? Do these guys train differently because they're already naturally athletic? (Prince is in the NBA and my friend has the highest vertical on the team). Or do basketball coaches and trainers know less about lifting than other sports?
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2005/06/20, 01:04 PM
There are certain athletes that already are "gifted." For the rest of us, we have to work harder. You can't compare yourself to Tayshaun or even try his routine...especially if your body composition is not the same as his. Everyone is unique so you'll have to find a training regimen geared to help you achieve your goals!!!
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
E-mail: rpacheco@freetrainers.com
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2005/06/20, 04:22 PM
I'm not comparing the workout routine I have with theirs. Or saying their trainers are wrong. I'm just wondering about the justification for their thinking. From my understanding most basketball trainers concentrate heavily on stability, which is really important. And if you already have a 40 inch vertical, it seems like there would be a point of diminishing marginal returns for trying to jump higher. Obviously these guys don't have to train for strength because they're already naturally athletic, but it still seems like it would benefit them. I've just heard a lot of conflicting things about training for basketball. Some focus on plyometrics, others on powerlifting and olympic lifting, and others on most stability and endurance. I assume people training high caliber athletes know what they're doing, but it's still confusing to me. Can anyone shed some light on this?
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2005/06/20, 04:58 PM
Would you please post a real profile?
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2005/06/20, 05:37 PM
Sorry. I keep trying to post a profile and for some reason it just keeps refreshing the page. I'll try to figure it out later, but for now I'll just post it here. I'm 6'8, 230 and I just turned 20. Currently my bench is 225, dl at least 385 ( I don't max much on this) and squat of 275. My goals are to incrase my squat and hopefully my vertical. I'll post any other info you want too, hopefully I'll stop being retarded and get this profile thing to work. And I'm sorry if I came off wrong in the post, I wasn't trying to be disparaging of basketball trainers, I'm just genuinely confused by them.
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2005/06/20, 05:56 PM
'body type' is a load of crap....yes some individuals are more suited for a particular lift...so that if you're very tall squats will be more difficult....however even such people will greatly benefit from squats...barring any injuries preventing them....
Forget a while ago saw of Kobe Bryant clip doing 365+chains...he's 6'7...and has a great vertical...thing about vertical is that it diminishes with age after a certain point...early twenties? heavy lifting+plyometric allows one to hang on to one's abilities longer and perhaps in the beginning to improve upon natural athletecism ...even if the vertical is 40 inches....
flexibility, balance, endurance,etc...are important but not at expense of strength/power...even during the season...they should be able to train with moderate weights...whether it's olympic lifts or general compound weight lifting movements.....and in the offseason there should be no reason except injuries to prevent them from training heavy....
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2005/06/20, 11:54 PM
Menace has a good point, but the trainers you talked to definitely knew what they were talking about. Once one has reached a point where their legs are pretty strong, I believe that power output exercising, explosive lifts, and Isometrics are FAR more effective for your vertical than the traditional squat. Strength of the legs is important, but not as important as explosiveness and power. Don't get me wrong, squats are an awesome exercise no matter what you're trying to accomplish, but may not be as vital to a bball player's training as other things. Also, no basketball player should ever leave out any aspects in their program. A player's training should consist of all of the important elements needed to be athletic such as heavy lifting, explosive lifting, plyos, SAQs, and even endurance (especially anaerobic). So no bball player should just use plyos, or just use squats, they should combine all of the ideas into a complete regimen.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/06/21, 12:04 AM
One thing I do disagree with. The whole body type factor is not a load of crap by any means. Some people can't get that big. Everyone's body has a limit, and some people's muscles just don't bulge out, even if they do work out. As a world class athlete and pro basketball player, I'm sure Tayshaun Prince has been through his fair share of workouts, but he still has a very skinny frame.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/06/21, 01:00 AM
Again, I wasn't suggesting that they don't know that they're talking about, just that I don't understand it, which is why I asked. I'm just curious about other people's opinions on it, or how you would train a basketball player. About Tayshaun, he's listed at 6'9 215. There are a lot of successful skinny basketball players so you could certainly make the arguement that he would not want to get bigger, but suggesting it's impossible seems kind of ridiculous to me. I guess the differences in training are due to different body types. I'm probaly biased towards doing heavy squats since the only people I get to talk to about training are power lifters though.
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2005/06/21, 01:03 AM
aron I am not disputing that people are limited by their genetics...but way too many people say...'my body type' does nto allow me tod squats...or this or that....no your body type may limit your gains...so instead of progressing as fast as someone predispositioned for a particular lift...you'llstill make good gains...
just because Prince is in NBA doesn't mean he knows how to eat/exercise...he's a gifted bball player...which doesn't transfer to other areas....sorry but no halo effect here...he's skinny because he probably has fast metabolism and does a lot of cardio in terms of bball, and doesn't eat sufficiently to progress....many bball players in NBA have horrible diets....some seem completely ignorant....also their trainers can only help them to the extent they want to be helped....some just rather not do certain things and their 100-300g a year trainers abide....'working around' certain lifts....if you walk into my gym then you'd think I am the only guy with the 'right' bodytype to do squats or deadlifts or whatever else....do I have a better built for deadlifts than squats for example? yes...and that cna easily be seen through my numbers...but I still do lifts I lag in because I can still make gains and they benefit me nevertheless....
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2005/06/21, 01:06 AM
even myself as an example....I used to be 140lb at 16...and was 160-170 by 18...my dad was very skinny through his 30s....so I could have used same excuses....yet I managed to get to 215 at 7% bf.....never used any steroids/prohormones....I cleaned up my diet but by no means it's pefect....more than possible to gain weight....
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2005/06/23, 01:51 PM
Arondaballer I agree with you that explosiveness is more important at a point, but I feel like I should be able to squat at least 1.5 times my bodyweight before I make it my focus.
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2005/06/23, 04:27 PM
....What you think you should do?.......meaning....."my ego wants me to do 1.5 times my bodyweight"
Somtimes you have to defesize(sp) sopmthing to get better at it....case in point......I have been doing box squats latly.....however I have added 20lbs to my deadlift?
basketball and any sport in general......isn't always about whos the biggest or strongest.........but who gets it done.....if your fast with good dribbling skills, explosoveness, and a descent verticle with a good wing span......who cares if your squating just your bodyweight.......what you do in the weight room should carry over to the court......to make you better.
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gravity is not a law, only a obstacle
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2005/06/24, 01:50 AM
It's not about ego, it's about getting better. I'm not going to brag about my ball handling, shooting or other basketball skills over the internet but my vertical is definitely my weakest link. I've read a lot of things about squatting 1.5-2 times being almost a prerequisite to have plyometrics be helpful. It makes sense anyway since power= strength/speed and strength is definitely my weakest link.
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2005/06/24, 03:18 AM
squatting 1.5 to 2.0 your body weight should be your goal for health and performance reasons. It will build confidence too. And it will help you jump higher and be more explosive. Strength supports power. The more strength you have, the more power you can safely handle.
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2005/06/26, 08:09 PM
It's definitely a constant battle for me. I feel like I could go straight for short term gains and "maximize" the current power I already have by not lifting so much and just doing some plyometrics. It's hard to look cool when you can barely get a break away dunk because your legs are tired from squatting twice a week.
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2005/06/26, 11:24 PM
You have a point menace. I would say a lot of players in the NBA don't eat right, and don't want to do certain lifts. Gator also brought up a very vital point about the importance of squatting. This is why any athlete who wants to improve their vertical needs to improve every aspect by using all kinds of training. Retrofish, squatting heavy twice a week probly isn't a good idea. Try doing explosive box squats one of those days instead. And also, yes it might be safer and more effective to not do power development so much until you've got a little more strength. You still have much to learn, so be patient with your results.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/06/27, 01:54 AM
I squat for a decent amount of reps on one of the days, and for a heavier triple on the other. I tried box squatting while experimenting with the westside template but I didn't get good results with it. I will be cycling some box squats in though. I felt like trying to squat more often might be worth a shot and since I'm way too fragile to handle something like smolov I'm going with two days a week.
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2005/06/28, 10:27 AM
You can't just TRY box squats. You have to train them for atleast a month. THERE is no overnight fix for any athlete. If any plan is going to work you need to go after it like it you believe in it. Box squats work when you A) Train them properly and B) Train them hard.
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2005/06/28, 12:20 PM
I did the westside template posted on this site for about two months and my squat max didn't budge. Maybe I should have stuck with it longer, but it was pretty frustrating so I decided to switch things up a bit.
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2005/06/28, 05:57 PM
box squats added 20lbs to my max.....in 8 weeks
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gravity is not a law, only a obstacle
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2005/06/29, 12:13 AM
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Quoting from retrofish:
I did the westside template posted on this site for about two months and my squat max didn't budge. Maybe I should have stuck with it longer, but it was pretty frustrating so I decided to switch things up a bit.
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Theres more to the westside barbell routine than just the template. read all the articles on westside-barbell.com and elitefts.com for the specifics. Its been my experiance that if you didn't get stronger on westside, you were doing something wrong.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/06/29, 12:57 AM
The articles on Westside all look like they are over 60 pages. I have no doubt they contain valuable information, but I'm pretty sure I shouldn't have to read a novel to see any strength gains.
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2005/06/29, 02:01 AM
if your not commited enough to read a few pages from one of the top strenth people around whos stuff is tryed and true then chances are you wont be going anywhere qickly and i say quicky as a reitive term. quick in weightlifting is months.
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2005/06/29, 11:24 AM
If you can't type a coherent sentence I don't know if you should be giving me advice about reading.
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2005/06/29, 02:39 PM
what he says is true.......theres not always gonna be somone to "give" you a workout.....somtimes you have to go out on your own, and research yourself.
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gravity is not a law, only a obstacle
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2005/06/29, 03:42 PM
MY best gains have come from reading those 60-page articles. I have over 50 books and 10 3inch article binders sitting on my shelf at home on nothing but training. I have every NSCA journal from the last 10 years and have read each one cover to cover several times. Making gains is about not being lazy physically and mentally. You have to make an investment in your training plan. You view is very narrow minded...
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2005/06/29, 03:42 PM
* your view
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2005/06/29, 04:40 PM
I read what I can find online pretty voraciously. I've been through all the articles on elitefts, drquat, and some of the ones on t-mag. I've also had to wade through a lot more crap than I'd like to find people who know what they're talking about, there's a lot of bs on the internet. I wasn't saying that I'm not going to read the articles on there at some point, or that they wouldn't help your gains, just that they are not a prerequisite for ANY gains at all. I really don't think that statement is particularly out of line.
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2005/06/30, 02:32 PM
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Quoting from retrofish:
I read what I can find online pretty voraciously. I've been through all the articles on elitefts, drquat, and some of the ones on t-mag. I've also had to wade through a lot more crap than I'd like to find people who know what they're talking about, there's a lot of bs on the internet. I wasn't saying that I'm not going to read the articles on there at some point, or that they wouldn't help your gains, just that they are not a prerequisite for ANY gains at all. I really don't think that statement is particularly out of line.
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I didn't say your statement was out of line. I said it was narrow minded. Your statement from before,"The articles on Westside all look like they are over 60 pages. I have no doubt they contain valuable information, but I'm pretty sure I shouldn't have to read a novel to see any strength gains," is a narrow view. You said in so many words, I'm not willing to read to get better. I am willing to bet you are doing something wrong if it is not working at all for you. Obviously I would need to see you to train to make that call but something is wrong. The Westside system is the top of the line and everybody makes atleast modest gains using it. You ever see a fly on a window? It bangs it head over and over again trying to get out. If it would only look around the corner it would see that open door to freedom. By not reading everything there is you are like the fly on the window. I know there is a lot of crap out there. That is why you have to constantly educate yourself so you can wade through it and get to the promise land. When you have questions about what you read on EFS, ask them here. I will answer every question you have.
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2005/06/30, 04:25 PM
I've been reading the articles on Westside, it's a lot of information to absorb. I'm always reading about weight training and basketball in my spare time. All that statement was supposed to mean is that I thought I knew enough to see some kind of improvement. I was disappointed that I didn't. I will make another attempt at it in a few weeks.
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2005/07/02, 10:59 AM
Are you using the templates posted here?
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2005/07/02, 12:13 PM
follow there workouts as well as the template. I used the westside system throughout the wrestling season, while practicing twice a day, 6 days a week, and still managed to get stronger. The dynamic sessions were easier on my recovery system and CNS, and helped to keep me from overtraining. Even though I no longer follow westside to the letter, I am still using many of their methods, just in a routine that I modified for my needs. I only recommended reading the articles on westiside and elitefts because if your not making gains, you may be doing something wrong. The articles on westside are 60 page documents, but those 60 pages are broken up into articles. Considering most of the articles are written by louie simmons himself, I'd take the time and give it another chance.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/07/02, 01:15 PM
I've read about half the stuff on there so far. I don't know if my problem is because of diet or lifting or a combination. I was pretty much unable to gain muscle and strength until this year when I put on about 30 pounds relatively quickly. I'm still trying to figure out what works for me.
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