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2005/10/09, 12:42 AM
Plyos should be done before weight training for the most part. If your goal is maximum strength on say a squat then I would squat first and then do the plyos right after.
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2005/10/08, 11:43 PM
Just wondering what you guys think...I thought strength training should be done beforehands....because plyos have a high cardio component and drain the body of energy....however doing plyos afterhand will leave you with less power but it could be used partially as a recovey tool for the strength training...
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2005/10/08, 11:49 PM
I always do my plyo-type jumps after lifting. Though lifting can take a lot out of your legs, I think it's the best way to go. I dunno though, unless your main goal is to jump higher, I would say do plyos once a week after your dynamic lifting so it won't be so hard, and do something like run sprints at a different time of the day on your ME day.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/10/08, 11:54 PM
What I should have said was that on a ME type of day where I lift heavy and my legs feel like jello, any plyos or running directly after is hard for me. On my one-legged hops my knees give out sometimes after heavy lifting and I don't get nearly as high on anything else. Just my 2 cents.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/10/09, 12:43 AM
Plyos should never have a high cardio component. They are for improving power. You should have ample rest between sets and keep the reps around 5-10.
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2005/10/09, 05:13 AM
I asked this question because one of the trainers....suggested that by doing plyos after strength training will result in more 'injuries' ....according to the trainer the body will be in a weakened/tired state and is more prone to injuries during plyos....I am wondering how true this is....I thought that the athletes simply won't have as much energy to push themselves during plyos but should still get decent results and can do it as a recovery tool additionally...
(I thought that doing strength training first is best....especially if the primary goal of the athlete to gain strength/muscle ASAP....in my scenario the athlete is plenty explosive and has an amazing vertical....his main challenge is gaining strength and muscle in 3 months....and he's made to do plyos 2-3 times a week on 4 day split....I was saying that's contradictory to his goals...)
nm about the cardio component statement, I was simultatenously thinking 2 things and it came out sideways....lol...
I am generally suspicious of broad statements especially from trainers whose main qualifications come from national certifications and who don't have personal experience with serious training.....
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2005/10/09, 02:33 PM
To build explosive strength, do the plyos first. To build your squat, lift first. Once again, it all depends on your goals. I was also going to say that if you think plyo's are cardio, then your doing them wrong, but Matt beat me too it.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/09, 06:56 PM
lol, like i was saying before, I have a tendency to think about too many things at once and I tend to have whatever I want to come out sideways....I was also thinking about variated olympic lifts used for endurance training.....
e.g. I saw a JV football team do hangcleans for 20 sets starting at 20 and ending at 1...ladder sets....with 30-45 sec rest in between....I was thinking about this for some reason as I was talking about plyos....so like I said it came out sideways in my original post....
However is there any reason to believe there's increased injury risk if you do max strength training first before plyos? that should have been my question originally.....
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2005/10/09, 08:55 PM
This is a sample lift for volleyball:
Monday:
Power Cleans
5 sets of 2 2min tbs
Box Jumps
5 x 4
Box Squats
2 x 10 @ 55%
Step-ups Super set with Physioball leg curl
10 x 3 10 x 3
Back Hypers super set with a calve raise
10 x 3 10 x 3
Roman Sit-ups <--> Roman Twists <--> Hang leg raise
20 x 3 30 x 3 10 x 3
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2005/10/09, 08:58 PM
The cleans are done first. They prime you for the jumps anyway. I progress the box jumps as the cycle progresses. We start with plain old box jumps and progress to depth drops off an 18" box to a box jump. We will jump train away from the weight room 1-2 times per week depending on the cycle.
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2005/10/09, 09:47 PM
Gator, you guys ever do altitude jumps? I know they tend to have a bad rep because of injury, but I have been reading up on some good stuff about them if they're done properly.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/10/09, 10:08 PM
The Hit (shock) Method
Next in the progression are altitude jumps, a term coined by Fred Wilt, which are an example of the hit or shock method. In essence, you step off from various heights and upon landing you undergo minimal flexion of the legs (or arms) which forces the muscle to stretch sharply and undergo maximum tension. This happens automatically and your mind is not involved in developing maximum tension. This is why this method is so effective. It produces a greater force than you would produce on your own.
In general, for highly trained athletes with great absolute strength, the altitude jumps are done from a height of approximately 5 - 6 feet and more. When first beginning you should begin with low heights of approximately 2 - 3 feet and gradually work up to 6 feet or more. Studies have shown that jumping off from heights of 9 feet or more are counterproductive and the athletes are hesitant to jump from such heights.
The main reason for using altitude jumps is to develop supermaximum strength, i.e., maximal eccentric strength. To do this, it is necessary to use exercises in which the muscles are forced, under the influence of significant external forces, to execute work in the eccentric range. The load must be such that it forces the muscles to contract at the upper limit of their supermaximal strength for a very brief period of time.
In the altitude jump, upon landing from a height of 6 - 7 feet, the extensors of the ankle, knee and hip joints and the spine are forced to execute eccentric work under the influence of inertial forces. In these brief conditions the athlete develops the ability to display brief muscle tension during which the force reaches values that are fantastic at first glance. It fluctuates from 1500 - 3500 kg, i.e., they exceed your weight by 20 or more times.
A person is not able to achieve such strength in other exercises, only in altitude jumps, which are excellent stimulators of muscle strength. The altitude jumps used for strength training must be done on soft gym mats or a well dug hole with sand.
Altitude jumps in which the muscles under the influence of large external forces execute only eccentric work. In eccentric work, there is maximum tension in the shortest time. This facilitates the growth of strength in eccentric and in concentric movements.
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2005/10/09, 10:11 PM
These are for well trained athletes only. If you do this with out the proper progression you will without a doubt get injured.
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2005/10/09, 11:47 PM
Gator(or anyone else who would like to answer this) I got a question for you...
lets say you got a talented athlete...he/she excels in certain areas but definitely lacks in a couple areas also...would you train him/her to mainly improve in those lacking areas or would you push the edge in the key areas that athlete excels....(e.g. lets say the athlete has amazing leaping ability, agility...etc....noticebly better than every other athlete you train...but that person lacks in strength and size....)....assuming you can't maximally train all areas....
also how is dynamic training related to plyometric training?
I know dynamic training focuses on speed with a light weight....while plyometric training focuses on power aspects...also with a semi light weight or just bodyweight....how do you incorporate plyometric training in lets say a westide barbell method training?
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2005/10/10, 12:33 AM
Depends... I can answer this question with relevance to wrestling though... When training, most coaches, actually all the good ones I have had, emphasize bread and butter moves. As in if you can hit 2 moves from every position without anyone being able to stop those moves, then you will be much better developed compaired to someone that practices many moves. this is specialization.
HOWEVER, every good coach I have ever had emphasized working on weak points in athletic development. I always had poor flexibility, especially in my hips, so most of my coaches alotted extra time for this for me. Wrestlers that were weak in positions, trained those positions more than they practiced set ups, etc.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/10, 08:18 AM
My point is this....take a basketball player...as an example...
lets say he's 6'6 200lb...he already has 40 inch vertical and agility ....however he definitely needs to put on some muscle mass and strength....and has a chance to do plyometrics and variation olympic lifts....or can do heavy strength training to build muscle/strength....would it not make sense to do strength training with primary emphasis and move the power/plyo training on the back burner doing it maybe once a week....ie with secondary emphasis?
For example I noticed that many NBA players lean towards excelling in areas they are dominant....iverson, prince, etc...guys who seem to lack any real size/muscle/strength yet are very quick, agile, etc....and over the years they don't seem to make an effort at gaining more muscle/bodyweight...take prince from detroit for instance....he's like 200lb at 6'9....and he hasn't gained an ounce of muscle it seems over the years he's been in nba...
just something I have been pondering...just wanted to see every1's opinions on this
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2005/10/10, 12:59 PM
Yes. In that instance, the deficit dictates the emphasis.
WHat you have been noticing is the trend that people like to practice what they are already good at. For example...
Take a lift that you like. How do you feel when you know you are coming up on training that lift? Lets take the front squat, one of my favorite lifts as an example. When I know I will be doing front squats soon, I get excited. You naturally want to work at that lift. Why? because you are successful with it.
Then take a lift you don't like doing but know you have to do... Most people will approach a lift like this with some trepidation.
Therefore, people tend to train what they are already good at.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/10, 09:09 PM
Menace, the example you gave is the definition of Kobe Bryant, whom I think has the potential to be the best player in the NBA if he would let himself. When he first came into the league, he was a skinny high school kid with quickness, hops, and flashy moves/dunks. He got a little stronger each year, but the summer before the 2003-2004 season, he went on a program that involved a lot of heavy lifting, box jumps, and sprinting to complement his game and he added over 20 pounds of solid muscle. He now has the potential to be awesome all around. He can bench press over 300, squat over 500, and still has the incredible hops and quickness he had before the gained mass. If a basketball player truly wants to excel and be the best he/she can be, I believe that they must train all aspects that they need and attempt to improve their weak spots because players such as Iverson can only be so quick and can only use what they have to his/her limits. That is at least the case in basketball.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/10/10, 09:21 PM
Really I think that applies to everything you would train for. If you really want to be the best you can be ALL AROUND, you must train every aspect. You should probably sit down at the end of competitive season and figure out what it is that you could/should improve and then set out to improve it as your number one priority until it's no longer necessary. Once you balance out your abilities, then you can start working on everything equally or at least go back to a normal routine. Just my opinion.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/10/11, 01:26 AM
Aron, wrestler, I agree with you completely....
I hope gator will respond when he gets a chance....I am always curious on what his thoughts are on a topic like this...
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2005/11/02, 03:43 AM
Iverson and Prince are underdeveloped because they don't train. Iverson has said more than once that he doesn't want to get bigger when people ask him about how he gets pushed around, and Prince has a trainer that was quoted as saying something like, 'he's not going to get big anyway, so we'll focus on training stability.' I think this was all in SI but I read it a while ago so I'm not sure. If you ask me basketball players have some of the worst training routines of any athletes.
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