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2005/10/11, 05:14 AM
hey guys, when you're approaching your last rep, is it better to squeeze out a sqirmy sloppy one, or stop before your form falls apart?
Jim
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2005/10/11, 08:59 AM
Jim - I had to grin as I've never used that term but your "sqitmy sloopy one" describes what I've seen a lot of people do. I like to go to failure but never lose control of the weights. In my case that might mean a partial that doesn't get quite all the way up or even a partial and static hold to get just a little more pump. Your form is still good and you aren't opening yourself up for injury.
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Mike
in Pensacola Now.
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2005/10/11, 12:18 PM
I train every rep as an individual lift. I want my form to be perfect, so that when the time to lift the heavy weight comes, I don't have to worry about the bar getting out of the groove. If you practice every rep perfect, then you will get in the habit of perfect form. This is a very good habit to have.
I don't ever go to failure because I train for powerlifting and athletic development and not bodybuilding, but regardless, every rep should be in control. Once your form starts getting sloppy, that is when you are asking for an injury.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/11, 12:25 PM
I must inject here that "controlled cheating" has its place. That is if you simply use perfect form each and every time(which for the most part you should), you may not have the ability to advance past a certain plateau, whatever that may be for you. What I mean is perfect reps will at some point stall you there...so "cheat" reps have their place here. Your muscles have to be subjected to heavier loads to overload for growth. If not, they have no reason to grow. So, "controlled" cheating is a factor you can use. If you do not do this periodically, there is a good chance you will stall out strength and hypertrophy wise.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/10/11, 11:25 PM
sorry bb1, but I can agree with all but one thing you said there.
I never use any form of cheat reps, nor do most powerlifters I know, and they are some of strongest individuals I know. Now whereas cheat reps, negatives, forced reps, partner assisted reps, etc., may have their place in bodybuilding, I see know reason why you can't improve your strength without them.
As for using heavier loads, I always train with 85-100% of my max, so I am always using heavy loads, just for much lower reps.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/12, 01:29 AM
Experience my friend, it will come to you.:big_smile: Bodybuilding is an art.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/10/12, 04:42 AM
I think you both have valid points...
since I tend to do a bit of both bodybuilding/powerlifting ....i employed 'cheat reps' throughout with great effectiveness...even when doing 1-2 rep sets....to squeeze out that 2nd or 3rd rep....I did slight and no so slight bounches...I never compromised the form significantly but nevertheless broke with textbook form.....I think there's obviously more than one approach to breaking through a plateau...you can try forced, partial, static, cheat, etc reps...or you can switch exercises or do any number of things....
wrestler can you clarify something...first you say
"I don't ever go to failure because I train for powerlifting and athletic development "
then you say
"As for using heavier loads, I always train with 85-100% of my max, so I am always using heavy loads, just for much lower reps."
isn't using 100% of your 1rm(absolute)...one of the definitions of going to failure? (as is going to failure at 2, 3 , x reps)...
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2005/10/12, 10:10 AM
wrestler while you make good points you must realize not every one wants strength or is into athletics.
I can see how this can be dangerous to powerlifters in cheating.....however for bodybuilders and powerbodybuilders....it can be used to some sucess.
However I wouldn't "cheat or force' no more than 2 reps.....the 1st rep you can usually get up about 1/3way to 3/4 the way with some slight cheating.....the 2nd one your lucky to get up 1/3 the way.
If your going to cheat, do it right and o nly on the last rep or 2.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/10/12, 11:45 AM
Not to beat a dead horse but my response took into account that Jim works out at home and I assume without access to a spotter. Not knowing how much weight but assuming he's maxing out, sloppy form can get you hurt.
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Mike
in Pensacola Now.
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2005/10/12, 10:02 PM
I wouldn't cheat without a spotter...unless it's an exercise like deadlifts and the weight won't pin you if you fail completely....
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2005/10/13, 11:34 AM
Yeah, my post if read alluded to "controlled cheating". There is a big difference as compared to all out cheating.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/10/13, 01:35 PM
============
Quoting from bb1fit:
Experience my friend, it will come to you.:big_smile: Bodybuilding is an art.
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that is what i meant. You said for hypertrophy AND strength. I agree that training to failure and sometime past failure can elicit positive gains in hypertrophy, however, it is not necessary for strength gains.
As for a 1rm max being training to failure, yes, it is training to failure, but that is not usually how training to failure is meant. Usually training to failure is meant with 8 or more reps. I should have been more specific in my post.
Andrew, i realize not everyone wants the added strengths, but you are missing two points: added strength leads to hypertrophy, and bb1 said that training without training to hypertrophy, you cannot progress your strength. No offense BB1fir, i respect you very much and always respect your opinions, but I think this is a narrow minded view. Olympic lifters and powerlifters never "cheat" and yet build very appreciable amounts of strength.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/13, 01:39 PM
Exposing your muscles to heavier loads does indeed translate to strength gains. If you never do this, why would the muscle have to get stronger? Muscle growth is an expensive proposition for the body, and something it does not want to do. If you do not "force" it to by periodically exposing it to heavier weights, it will not have to adapt and grow. This in turn translates to an increase in your 1 RM, which in turn translates to an increase in your working load weights.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/10/13, 01:52 PM
This is too confusing guys. When I retire I may just hire somebody to do my workouts.
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Sometimes life is like herding cats.
Charlie
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2005/10/13, 02:56 PM
strength does not always equal size ...or hypertrophy.
Look at menace....I out weigh him by 50 more lbs...yet I think the only lift I have better than him is the squat( maybe not now)
Look at the 150lb guys from china cleaning like 300+ they aren't very big.
However look at a 300lbs bodybuilder....which in off season may have 10% body fat at most... thats 270lbs of lean tissue....but they may only bench 500. A 300lb powerlifter, may have 20% body fat.....yet bench 600 to 700....even without a shirt.
So theres more to strength....than just the body getting "bigger"
Just that bodybuilding is as different as apples and oranges.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/10/13, 06:07 PM
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Quoting from bb1fit:
Exposing your muscles to heavier loads does indeed translate to strength gains. If you never do this, why would the muscle have to get stronger? Muscle growth is an expensive proposition for the body, and something it does not want to do. If you do not "force" it to by periodically exposing it to heavier weights, it will not have to adapt and grow. This in turn translates to an increase in your 1 RM, which in turn translates to an increase in your working load weights.
=============
I agree wholeheartedly, as I have said many times before, including on this thread. However, I don't believe "cheat reps" are the only way to increase the load placed on the muscles.
Andrew- Strength does not always equal size, however, strength can often times be necessary to elicit gains in hypertrophy.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/13, 09:40 PM
no one said it was the only way...just that cheat reps are a way to do it..
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/10/13, 10:03 PM
Complete change of topic but wrestler I just looked at you profile and for the first time saw your age. I'm impressed at the physiology knowledge that you have at this stage and the posts I've read indicate implementation also which is unusual.
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Mike
in Pensacola Now.
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2005/10/14, 12:18 PM
I wasn't aware that I said it was the only way. Just a tool that does have its place if used correctly. :big_smile:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/10/14, 12:41 PM
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Quoting from bb1fit:
If you do not do this periodically, there is a good chance you will stall out strength and hypertrophy wise.
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thats what I was refering too. I didn't mean for it to sound like you said it was the only way, or to put words into your mouth, just to inject my thoughts on the matter.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/14, 01:33 PM
Thanks mike. Physiology has been sort of a passion of mine, reading everything I can, attending all the clinics and seminars available, and learning anything I can from anyone that is willing to share.
As for implementation, without proper implentation, there is no way to dictate what actually works with all the other BS out there floating around. How else can you know whether something will be effective? You must seperate theory from practice.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/14, 01:59 PM
It seems like body tries to work with muscle it got before building new ....however it's just weird how there are plenty of big muscular guys who 'seem' big and strong but can use very little weights....what's their secret of building muscle....(for every ronnie coleman there are plenty of guys are are fairly weak for their size)
I am almost curious about this trainer....at my gym...for the last 2.5 years I haven't seen him go above 135lb....always doing million reps....and this is back in2003 when I saw him pyramid to 545 for 6 easy reps on squat...where he sat down into a deep squat and paused for 1-2 sec at the bottom of each rep...after doing warms ups with 135,225,215,405,455,495..etc....just thinking although in somewhat unrelated manner to the post whether he can at all keep any of the muscle by training so light....I mean can a million supersets help keep such strenght? cuz I asked others and he doesn't work out anywhere else... same for other exercises...it's been bugging me and my buddy fora while when we watch them....he stilllooks about same size...roids?+
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2005/10/14, 03:46 PM
yea I was thinking either roids.... OR he is doing like active recovery. And he workout some other time. I know alot of the YMCA employees work out after hours when its closed....so they can do and pick what they want.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/10/14, 03:52 PM
ok heres an intresting secenero....powerlifters don't go past failure? What about shirts and or squat suits and spots? If you put a shirt on....and the most you have ever benched is 400....yet now you can do 500....thats technically beyond failure.....IF someone spots you, on a final rep or 2....thats going beyond failure.
Cause in both instances.....your only doing abotu 1/2 of the work.....some would call shirts cheating? some call straps cheating....so?
I've used a method a while back to get my arm sa lil bigger....that invloved rest pause...and a lil bit of cheating....not only did i get 1/2 on my arms.....they got stronger....even without me cheating. Before then I had trouble curling 95lbs......now i can do it easily for 8 reps no moving or swaying.
I say if you can use somthing to your advantage.....go for it. If you have the proper safty that you need to "cheat"
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/10/14, 05:46 PM
What I meant by going to failure was continuing to do reps after you should have failed, as in cheat reps, the topic of discussion...
You think a bench shirt does 1/2 the work??? Pick out a random guy at the gym, put a single ply on him, and see if all of a sudden he can bench more. I doubt he would get 20lbs out of it. Bench shirts have to be trained with, just how a raw bencher has to train raw. And if you don't have the strength to begin with, you'll never put up big weight.
The shirt and straps = cheating topic is a totally other topic, and theres a thread on that in the powerlifting forum, for anyone that has any input.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/14, 06:57 PM
I don't necessarilly see shirted lifts as going past failure because it enables you to lift more so that your max is higher than raw so then you have to take that into consideration...wrestler has a valid point about training with the equipment to reap the rewards....but once you customize the shirt, find the proper groove....etc.etc....you can add 100+lb to your bench compared to raw...which is significant....I check forums where guys do over 600 shirted yet do bit over 400 raw....can't overlook that either...although...I have no issues with equipment if it's part of the sport....back back on the issue ....the shirt merely creates a 'new' max with the equipment....
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2005/10/14, 08:19 PM
I've worn one...and with 30mins of instruction.....I added 35lbs...and it was one ply in highschool
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/10/15, 03:59 AM
I thought powerlifters used 2 ply?
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2005/10/15, 08:54 AM
Nice to see my post prompted so many responses, even though most of it is over my head. Thanks for the input...no more squirmy reps for me! Instead, when I feel like my last rep will be squirmy I take several breaths (like lamaaz) and then can manage one more rep in good form.
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2005/10/15, 11:26 AM
That quote is still 100% true, "If you do not do this periodically(overload of some form), there is a good chance you will stall out strength and hypertrophy wise". Overloading of your muscle in some form, controlled cheating being one of them, (never said the only one) is in fact essential for the muscle to get stronger and grow. Why else would it ever do so?
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Quoting from wrestler125:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/10/15, 11:56 AM
Yes, 100% true, I just took it wrong.
Menace, shirts range from 1 ply to 3 ply poly suits that come over your elbows. They can be open back, closed, and some of them can even tie your shoes for you. Well, maybe not, but you get the idea. If you are benching under between 350-550 lbs, I would recommend going with a single ply. If you are doing less, I would recommend you continue to lift raw.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/15, 11:57 AM
Yooperjim- Just because you don't understand some of what is being said, doesn't mean you can learn. If there is something I said that you would like explaining, just ask...
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/15, 05:13 PM
and lemme tell you a bench shirt is VERY uncomfy....and it hurts
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/10/15, 09:24 PM
I was approaching 400 at one point...don't know where I am now...but I bet I am not far off...but since I don't compete I see no need for a shirt and I like to lift raw....I was just wondering about the different plys....seems like you guys often make comparison's about guys putting on shirts and doing lifts...but the shirts are often different....like you say put on a single ply shirt and do 100+ more but(to make a point that you must train with the equipment)....the guys who do it often use 2ply with closed elbows...etc...so their equipment assists them quite a bit more...Andrew pointed out with bit of instruction he added 35lb...in single ply...if he had closed elbow 2 ply...perhaps he could have come close to that 100lb mark...
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2005/10/15, 10:15 PM
yeawell I didn't train in it , we had a weightlifting contest at my school....with other schools....and he let me try one out....I worked in it one day for 1/2 my reps.....then used it....not comfortable at all lol. This went to my elbow.... or right at it...
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/10/16, 01:50 PM
I doubt it, just because in a 2 ply shirt, especially a closed elbow shirt, it is very hard to make the weight touch your chest. Thats why I say you should be doing around 500-600 before you even put on a double ply. And yes, its very uncomfortable, and often leaves marked bruising.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/17, 06:04 AM
Just wondering if per chance anyone knows where I can find a video of Daiki Kodama a 165lb division doing bench press for 618lb.....I have seen his 529 and his miss of 550+....but I heard he recently hit 618....really wanted to see it...
tks
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2005/10/17, 12:29 PM
nah man, couldn't find it. I'll search again later, and if I find it, I'll post it on the video thread in the powerlifting forum.
Also, anyone happen to know of the video of gene's failed 1015 bench press??? I heard its pretty gruesome, but was wondering if anyone knew where to find it.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/10/17, 07:01 PM
thanks wrestler...I only saw gene's 1005 very deep successful squat....someone posted it on deepsquatter.com
I was sad to see deepsquatter get hacked so the owner of the forum as he put it burned down the whole house and erased all the posts and accounts....o well...
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