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2005/11/15, 03:00 PM
this is what I said( gator) but she thinks otherwise.....anyone withany hard core back up or articles I can send her?
I searched all over here btw
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/11/15, 03:04 PM
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=670646&adTopicID=17&categoryID=51&IsSticky=0&Mytoken=DE8D450B-3C1C-4B75-BA4EB9C550BD1DDF591031390
theres the forum....if you wanan read over it.....feel free to join too..be nice have some like minded people on there.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/11/16, 04:23 AM
This poster from the other forum I think summarized it best:
Author Message
I-M-A-P-ness
M/28
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Massachusetts
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Posted: November 13, 2005 7:30 AM
Plyometrics and exercises like the snatch and clean as well as power lifts like the bench press and squat done explosively with 50-60%1RM loads will do nearly identical things. They are both aimed at steepening the strength curve...
What is "power" or "explosiveness"? Quite simply it can be defined as producing the most amount of force in the least amount of time. Say you are looking at a graph. The x-axis is time and the y-axis is power. The time it takes to produce your maximum amount of force would be graphed as your strength curve. The more quickly you can produce force, the steeper this curve will be.
Taks needed for explosivess, require a very steep curve before they need maximal amount of power produced in very sort time intervals. These tasks include spirnting and jumping. Now take a look at the olympic lifts... They start with a slow pull off the floor, but once the bar reaches knee height, an explosive hip exetnsion (ie a jump and spint is merely a hip extension) is exucuted to propel the weight into the correct position. Many olympic weightlifters even explode so hard that they jump while holding 300-400 lbs!! That explosiveness and that's the reason why NEARLY ALL TRAINERS of olympic track and field athletes and profession athetes requiring speed and jumping ability have their athlete do the olympic lifts OR have them box squat explosiveley (50-60%1RM). There really are very little exceptions, and I can point to plenty of of such trainers and plenty of physiology researchers who can back this up (including the pioneer who CREATED plyometrics/powermetrics).
Plyometrics steepen this strength curve as well. They are successful beause they also use motions that must be done explosively and they usually get their force through accumulated kenetic energy (falling from a height...) The faster something is moving; the more energy/force it has, so a subject falling from a 30" inch box produces much more resistance than one standing on the ground. You can looked at Jay Shroeder of Evolution Fitness in Arizona who has built machines that take advanage of the same principles used in plyometrics, but allow resistance to be added. He generally works with olympic caliber track athletes and NFL players. One of his more famous clients is Adam Archuletta, who wow'ed scouts in the NFL combine with his vertical leap, 40-yard dash time, and bench press test especially considering his meager weight...
Knowing the guts of a thing and not just that it works, but HOW IT WORKS, allows you much greater degree of flexability in program design. Plyometrics are great, but they are certainly not the only show in town. Most people have no idea how to implement them, and they provide little benefit beyond raw speed. Other methods can provide the same benefits AND great strength and structural gains.
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2005/11/14, 06:22 PM
Ok this was a big argument on the other sight....figured i'd share.....well not a big argument mainly between me and a "certified trainer" with 3 count them 3 certifications...and an associates in somthing else.
Anyways she said snatches and cleans would help any if little in a verticel jump. She said plyos is the best way to go.
Now I do argee they are important however so are the olympic lifts. I said its more 50 50 you need both olympic AND plyos to be good. She said no.....acording to
"her books" plyos are the most important.
I told her thats like saying to have a good bench you need only a strong chest.....which is wrong....you need tris back shoulders as well.
You need the olympic lifts for the strength and power....and the plyos to devolop it into somthing usabl;e for the court.....
Am I wrong?
Oh and if anyone has some articles I can post to her...to shut her up....about how the clean and snatches won't help feel free too.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/11/14, 08:15 PM
I tend to think of it a bit differently....I think plyos are better just became they carry over more to jumping....especially exercises like depth jumps, box jumps, etc...olympic lifts train core/lower back where an athlete develops the most power for jumping....so it's definitely effective....I would say 60-40 split in favor of plyos....but I difinitely disagree with her that olympic lifts are ineffective...I haven't done plyos all that much(tried it out a few times)....and haven't even done olympic lifts...but even just deadlifting which develops similar muscles as power cleans/snatches I gained huge amount of vertical..so power cleans are definitely effective..I would just say less so than plyos...
3 'certifications' roflmao...those things aren't worth the paper they are printed on....I definitely respect seasoned lifters with BAs or masters a lot more than those 'certifications'...those are truly a joke...training average joes trying to get in shape maybe they are good enough...but that doesn't qualify her as a s&c coach....
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2005/11/14, 08:33 PM
the athletes with the best vertical jumps in the Olympics are the Olympic weight lifters. You need both.
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2005/11/14, 09:14 PM
gator if you are looking for improvement in vertical over short period of time ...say 4-6 months...and the athlete has not trained with olympic lifts before....which method would work best? (because I thought to get the most out of the olympic lifts, the form has to be flawless/or close to it....and it takes a while to work to that point....where as plyos are fairly easy to master)
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2005/11/23, 11:18 PM
Here's what DeFranco says about Olympic Lifting: This is an answer to a question someone asked him about Olympic Lifting.
Q: I see most schools are very in tuned to using Olympic lifting as a large part of their strength programs. From your site, I see that you don’t use any Olympic lifts like cleans, snatches or jerks. But I also see that your athletes are ANIMALS! Just curious on your thoughts
A: Brian,
You are correct; I do feel that the Olympic lifts are highly overrated. Yet, you are also correct in that most of our athletes are ANIMALS! How could this be? Aren’t the Olympic lifts the best way to become “explosive” and athletic in the weight room? My answer is an emphatic, “No!”
I train my athletes like athletes, not Olympic weightlifters. The reason why I’m not a huge fan of the Olympic lifts is that they take a long time to teach. That is, if you teach them correctly. Also, most athletes are horrible at the Olympic lifts. The reason why most athletes aren’t great at the Olympic lifts is usually because they aren’t strong enough in the right places. After assessing an athlete’s power clean or power snatch form, I usually conclude that their technique flaws are due to a lack of hamstring, glute and low-back strength. This assessment usually means that I end up prescribing more trap-bar deadlifts, reverse hyperextensions, glute-ham raises, etc. This is called the TRAINING ECONOMY. Getting stronger in the deadlift, reverse hyper & glute-ham raise will improve your power clean, but it doesn’t work the other way around. Basically, I choose the exercises that give my athletes the best “bang for their buck”.
You also asked me how I get my athletes “explosive” if I don’t do a lot of power cleans. Here’s my answer: Most people say that they like the Olympic lifts because they are “fast”. Most coaches can’t accept the fact that any lift can be “fast”! For example, one day a week I use box squats with sub-maximal weights as an “explosive” exercise for my athletes. For an athlete who can squat 505lbs., I might use 315lbs. for multiple sets of 2 reps. The athlete would perform these reps as fast as possible. Since 315lbs. represents about 60% of his 1-rep max, science has proven that the weight is heavy enough to produce enough force, yet light enough to produce enough speed. And we should all know that speed X strength = power.
This same athlete would probably only be able to perform power cleans with about 225lbs. So I ask you this question, “Would you rather be explosive with 225lbs. or 315lbs.?” I’d rather have my athletes move heavier weights faster.
In conclusion, it’s not that I don’t like power cleans or that I never do them, I just feel that there are usually quicker, more efficient ways to achieve certain goals.
Hope this clears things up a bit.
Joe D.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/11/23, 11:23 PM
Matt, I know you've had much success with Olympic Lifts and that Olympic Lifters can jump with the best of them, but I also agree with Joe. I have been one to struggle with the olympic lifting form, etc. but have had great results doing other things. Joe has some pretty incredible results with his athletes, too. They are strong, fast, ripped to shreds and he also has many that can jump out of the gym....without all the olymic lifting.
So my opinion is that Olympic Lifts work and that using them is beneficial, but that there's also nothing wrong with going in the other direction because you can get the same results doing something else.
And don't think that I just got lazy or gave up on Olympic Lifting because I did power cleans, hang cleans, etc. for about a year, and got some results, but I found the form very very difficult and it was kinda hard on me. I practiced, but at least for me, I don't think Olympic Lifting's in my best interest.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/11/24, 05:02 AM
One of the main disadvantage of olympic lifts, to me, is that they're pretty much impossible to teach to yourself. I would be very uncomfortable attempting to preform them without competent coaching, and that is pretty difficult to find.
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2005/11/24, 01:43 PM
aron, didnt you just say that the most successful program you had incorporated the olympic lifts into it???
I agree that joe has had a lot of great ideas, but this article wasn't one of them. I am not saying that he is wrong, only that putting out that article was a bad idea. Joe DeFranco is an elite level trainer, and has a very LIMITED amount of time with each client. Therefor, for the time it takes to teach the olympic lifts, it is more beneficial to be doing something else. However, I don't think the olympic lifts have to be done with perfect form to be beneficial, and I also think that if an athlete already knows them, than they should be utilized. Look at all the other good programs out there, they utilize the olympic lifts. Also, if your squatting 505 but only powercleaning 225, then you have a weakness that needs to be addressed.
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/24, 06:24 PM
what should your powerclean to squat be?
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2005/11/25, 12:04 AM
I agree with Defranco somewhat...I made the very same argument...olympic lifts are very complicated....and unless the technique is good...how can the athlete use any serious amount of weight that is all but required to get results with olympic lifts....yes if one has a qualified coach who spends a lot of time doing it then by all means go for it...but most athletes never have that so his point is valid...this is what is happening with my friends...he spends exactly 3 minute swith his S&C coach maybe not even...she doesn't go step by step with him or watch his form or anything...what's the point of doing <135 hang powerclean into 1/4 squat catch position....when I helped him deadlift 50-75lb more in a short period of time and he's doing ~330 1 rm.....once again i agree with Defranco for the justifications he gives...but I don't think olympic lifts are overrated or that they are ineffective....
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2005/11/26, 01:15 AM
I said I agree with DeFranco in HIS case. He doesn't have the time to teach them. But you already know them Aron.
Also menace, don't be so quick to dismiss the olympic lifts due to poor technique. The weight doesn't have to be that high to see results, the purpose is to move the weight fast. It's impossible to get the weight from the gound to your shoulders without moving it fast.
Also, just because form is less than perfect doesn't mean its not beneficial. Just because he isn't catching rock bottom doesn't mean hes not getting the benefit. The benefit is in the explosive concentric, not in the catch. The catch means little, except in the olympics.
Also, look at the videos of the olympic lifters I posted. Pyrros Dimos of greece doesn't always drop to catch. In fact, he works up in weight, catching lower as the weight becomes heavier. He starts with long pulls (snatches without knee dip) and works up to full, deep, powercleans. And try telling him he can't jump. I would bet my squat cage that he can jump as high as ANY of DeFranco's athletes. Also, bear in mind, many of them are already doing olympic lifts in their regular workouts with their teams, outside of Joe's facility. No disrespect to DeFranco, I just think he worded it wrong. They may be ineffective in his case, but they are far from overrated.
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/27, 09:15 PM
I agree with you wrestler. I just had been having second thoughts about them lately. I would say it's mostly because I've never been a big fan of the olympic lifts. They are so hard to learn and they seemed kinda hard on me. The program that I've had the most success with only incorporated some high pulls. I still don't really know where I stand on all this. I mean, I know olympic lifters can jump out the freakin gym, but they've been doin it for years where as I've seen such awesome results without doing them. The next program I'll be doing after the season is a sample 6-week vertical program by DeFranco that involves box squats, plyos, reverse hypers, weighted ab work, and even some olympic stuff in the last two weeks. After that, I will do the program using Luke Lowrey's (the best I've ever done) concepts.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/11/28, 02:51 AM
Olympics are not hard to teach. I can take an athlete who has NEVER done them before and have them doing a clean and a snatch properly after 50 minutes of focused work. The problem is that most people do not know the proper progressions to teach them. They are not that complicated. They involve triple extension which is vertical jumping. I am willing to bet that the people who don't get the results from Olympics are doing them wrong or going too heavy all the time.
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2005/12/03, 01:26 AM
I took an intern two days ago with zero experience in the clean and had her doing them properly in 30 minutes. No time to teach? Too lazy to teach me thinks....
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2005/12/03, 01:27 AM
or no idea how to teach...
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2005/12/03, 01:29 AM
I believe I teach them well because I do them all of the time as part of my workout. That is how you figure out all of the details in doing the clean and the snatch. It is a matter of great effort to understand these lifts well enough to teach them to anyone in a 30 minutes. If there is anyone interested I will gladly take you through it if you come visit me here at the South End Zone under the stadium.
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2005/12/04, 03:20 PM
Gator Ill take you up on that offer when I get back to the states, if you are serious.
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2005/12/04, 03:23 PM
retro, you know I'm serious. We're still waiting for your resume. If you really want to do this then it needs to get here soon.
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2005/12/05, 03:11 PM
Yeah I'm sorry about the delay, it's sort of difficult since I'm studying abroad. I did mail it a week ago it should be there soon. The mail system in Gainesville does suck though. Sorry, I'll stop hijacking this thread.
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