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2006/01/15, 07:08 PM
This from an interview with Dave Tate on T-Nation. He seems to say that it is better to box squat to increase mass for tall thin guys rather than "rock bottom" squats. I just went back to "rock bottom" and am wondering if this was the right decision. I am trying to gain mass so am wondering if I need to go to box squats or at least alternate between the two.
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Tate: I worked with a taller lifter recently who was interested in overall mass. One of the problems he was having was leg mass and the overall gains he was receiving from squatting.
I found out he was squatting with a twelve inch stance, doing rock bottom squats. Now, that's a great quad exercise, but as far as a mass building exercise, it's not going to be as good as a wide box squat.
T-Nation: Why is that exactly?
Tate: It's fairly simply. Let's say the guy can handle 225. But that 225 pound load on his body isn't going to develop the same mass as what a 315 load would. Here's a guy who's been trying to bring his squat up for some time and it hasn't gone up.
So the first thing to do is widen his stance out, put him up on a high box, and teach him how to sit back onto his glutes and his hamstrings. So more of the focus is going to be shifted to the bigger body parts as opposed to what he was doing before, which was just hitting his quads and lower back.
Now, let's say after six to eight weeks, the guy is doing sets of five with 315 on the box squat. His bodyweight and mass will go up because now he's supporting heavier loads on his body. And, if he were to move his stance back in, he'd shatter the record he had before because his overall strength is now up!
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2006/01/15, 09:06 PM
This is where I feel Dave Tate is ignorant to other forms of lifting. While I do feel he is correct in this particular instance, alternating may be the most effective means.
On another occassion, he compares squatting parallel 700lbs to squatting ATG 500lbs. I'm sorry, but I want to see someone with a 700lb powerlifting squat squat 500lbs ATG. Tate thinks that someone that squats 500lbs olympic does not have the lower back strength to squat 700 lbs. He is correct, but last time I checked, there wasn't a single american that could squat 500lbs ATG.
As much respect as I have for him, and as much as I have learned from him, Dave tends to be a bit hard headed. He will be the first to admit this. For example, look at what he went through over the past couple of years becuase of neglecting mobility training. Hell, it took cosgrove a month of training before Dave could get out of bed without pain. And in a recent interview, he stated that he still doesn't think mobility work is that necessary for a powerlifter.
Also, an ATG squat hits more than just the quads and lower back.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/15, 09:33 PM
Fingers what do you think of applying 10x10 method to box squats twice a week? would that be brutal or what? doing 50-55% for 10 sets of 10 reps with 2-3 min rest between sets....and then crying like a baby?....twice a week since box squats allow faster recovery?...man this sounds painful but I have a feeling it may work wonders...
Wrestler I am thinking something along the same lines....since his lifters prefer to train the body/muscles to hit that 1 spot below parallel....the muscles are not necessarily worked through the full ROM or are strong at the points considerably below parallel...lack of muscle memory at the ROM for ATG and lack of strength at that depth...that's something very unsubstantiated to say of him....would they even have the hip flexibility to get that low? with their competition wide stance......hey I'll be the first guy to give him props if he shows me 1 of his many lifters squatting 700 who can do 500 ATG...also are we talking both lifts raw? or 700 in a suit and 500 atg raw? or both lifts in a suit?
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2006/01/15, 09:41 PM
Yes, both lifts raw, as westside has a large number of lifters squatting a grand suited. Most of westside can squat 700 raw.
I've met the guy, he's smart as hell, but very set in his ways.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/16, 09:46 PM
Hard to see when you're so immersed in your own way of thinking....this is why it's good to be a third party looking in....you can objectively use different methods for most efficient results....instead of blindly clinging to any 1 idea/way of training....
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2006/01/17, 08:13 AM
Menace, Don't think I'm quite up to that 10x10 yet. I feel like I'm going to lose my breakfast thinking about it. I am going to try to figure out the correct height for a box squat for next week.
I am assuming ATG means a$$ to ground or similar. By the way, I forgot my sheet with sets/reps for week two so I ad-libbed 10*3 on squats. It kicked my can. I did 185lbs 3*10 ATG (if I understand the acronym correctly) last week and barely finished. I thought that since I could do that weight at 3*10 I should be able to 10*3 at 225lbs. I only got 2 reps for the last three sets and that took every bit of explosion I had. It's funny how changing the set/rep mix changes everything so much. It seems like I am feeling the squats in my hams and butt more than in my quads. I tried to drive up from my heels. Is this correct?
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2006/01/17, 12:23 PM
The hamstrings are the primary movers in the power squat, the glutes in the ATG squat.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
============
Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/17, 03:52 PM
I have noticed that some muscles don't get sore at the same rate as others....wait a day...your glutes will probably be sore day or 2 after...good luck sitting down....lol...
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