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2006/02/05, 04:12 PM
Ok, there are tons of posts all the time about which burns more fat, walking, running, HIIT, long duration, etc. types of cardio.
This may be of particular benefit. Also noteworthy is the little fact that you can actually blunt fat oxidation with too much intensity.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Jan;34(1):92-7. Related Articles, Links
Determination of the exercise intensity that elicits maximal fat oxidation.
Achten J, Gleeson M, Jeukendrup AE.
Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, B15 2TT, United Kingdom.
PURPOSE: The aim of this study was to develop a test protocol to determine the exercise intensity at which fat oxidation rate is maximal (Fat(max)). METHOD: Eighteen moderately trained cyclists performed a graded exercise test to exhaustion, with 5-min stages and 35-W increments (GE(35/5)). In addition, four to six continuous prolonged exercise tests (CE) at constant work rates, corresponding to the work rates of the GE test, were performed on separate days. The duration of each test was chosen so that all trials would result in an equal energy expenditure. Seven other subjects performed three different GE tests to exhaustion. The test protocols differed in stage duration and in increment size. Fat oxidation was measured using indirect calorimetry. RESULTS: No significant differences were found in Fat(max) determined with the GE(35/5), the average fat oxidation of the CE tests, or fat oxidation measured during the first 5 min of the CE tests (56 +/- 3, 64 +/- 3, 58 +/- 3%VO(2max), respectively). Results of the GE(35/5) protocol were used to construct an exercise intensity versus fat oxidation curve for each individual. Fat(max) was equivalent to 64 +/- 4%VO(2max) and 74 +/- 3%HR(max). The Fat(max) zone (range of intensities with fat oxidation rates within 10% of the peak rate) was located between 55 +/- 3 and 72 +/- 4%VO(2max). The contribution of fat oxidation to energy expenditure became negligible above 89 +/- 3%VO(2max) (92 +/- 1%HR(max)). When stage duration was reduced from 5 to 3 min or when increment size was reduced from 35 to 20 W, no significant differences were found in Fat(max), Fat(min), or the Fat(max) zone. CONCLUSION: It is concluded that a protocol with 3-min stages and 35-W increments in work rate can be used to determine Fat(max). Fat oxidation rates are high over a large range of intensities; however, at exercise intensities above Fat(max), fat oxidation rates drop markedly.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/02/06, 08:18 AM
Is this saying that at a certain point you are actually not burning as much fat but maybe muscle tissue??? I struggle sometimes to understand the technial talk, so please be patient.
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Seize the day!
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2006/02/06, 10:49 AM
Yes.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/02/06, 11:24 AM
Once you understand the terms, it is just like reading a book (only more interesting, in my opinion). What are you having difficulty understanding?
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/06, 11:00 PM
PURPOSE: The aim of this study was to develop a test protocol to determine the exercise intensity at which fat oxidation rate is maximal (Fat(max)). METHOD: Eighteen moderately trained cyclists performed a graded exercise test to exhaustion, with 5-min stages and 35-W increments (GE(35/5)). In addition, four to six continuous prolonged exercise tests (CE) at constant work rates, corresponding to the work rates of the GE test, were performed on separate days. The duration of each test was chosen so that all trials would result in an equal energy expenditure. Seven other subjects performed three different GE tests to exhaustion. The test protocols differed in stage duration and in increment size. Fat oxidation was measured using indirect calorimetry. RESULTS: No significant differences were found in Fat(max) determined with the GE(35/5), the average fat oxidation of the CE tests, or fat oxidation measured during the first 5 min of the CE tests (56 +/- 3, 64 +/- 3, 58 +/- 3%VO(2max), respectively). Results of the GE(35/5) protocol were used to construct an exercise intensity versus fat oxidation curve for each individual. Fat(max) was equivalent to 64 +/- 4%VO(2max) and 74 +/- 3%HR(max). The Fat(max) zone (range of intensities with fat oxidation rates within 10% of the peak rate) was located between 55 +/- 3 and 72 +/- 4%VO(2max). The contribution of fat oxidation to energy expenditure became negligible above 89 +/- 3%VO(2max) (92 +/- 1%HR(max)). When stage duration was reduced from 5 to 3 min or when increment size was reduced from 35 to 20 W, no significant differences were found in Fat(max), Fat(min), or the Fat(max) zone. CONCLUSION: It is concluded that a protocol with 3-min stages and 35-W increments in work rate can be used to determine Fat(max). Fat oxidation rates are high over a large range of intensities; however, at exercise intensities above Fat(max), fat oxidation rates drop markedly.
JK...Mostly just as you mentioned wrestler, until I'm familiar with the terms, espeially abbreviations, I am better off reading thru things twice or even three times to really understand. If I'm still not absolutly sure I speak up. And your right, the more you understand something the more interesting it becomes.
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Seize the day!
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2006/02/09, 01:58 PM
most of the abbreviations are declared in the abstract itself. for example:
continuous prolonged exercise tests (CE)
CE is as simple as coninuous exercise.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/03/22, 11:42 AM
To add to the study, another study seems to confirm this (the bell curve where fat burning falls off drastically with too much intensity)....
One recent study is concurrent with my suggestions for cardio, which is longer duration, steady state. Seems researchers found that walking at 60% VO2Max for 1 hr. iincreased fat burning significantly for the next 20 hrs!
Moderate intensity folks....
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/03/24, 07:51 AM
So, what does this mean for HIIT?
I still think that a variety of types and inetensities will serve you best, but I do know that very high intensity for long periods overtaxes your heart and you won't lose weight.
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If you have a strong enough why you can bear almost any how.
- Nietzsche
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2006/03/24, 07:55 AM
Sorry, but rereading it again, it seems to be saying that intervals of 3 minutes at a moderate intensity are most effective? Am I misreading it?
Doesn't interval training burn so many more calories than steady state that it negates the arguement about EPOC, simply because the percentage of calories burnt that come from fat during interval training out weighs the amount of fat burnt during/afetr steady state?
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If you have a strong enough why you can bear almost any how.
- Nietzsche
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2006/03/24, 11:23 AM
There is a curve, and when you exceed that curve, MG becomes the predominant player.
The idea behind cardio is threefold, first is to be an extension of your diet(thus add to your calorie deficit), fat burn, and cardiovascular health.
Why would you burn so many more calories doing a HIIT protocol. After the initial frenzy with it, I started doing some research and testing.
The higher the output, your body shifts to a different substrate, it simply has to! FFA's simply cannot be mobilized that quickly.
So, if you are going to do cardio, and you are doing it for fat burn, why not do it the best way that fat is utilized during the endeavor?
Just as there was some high number floating around like muscle inceases metabolism by 40% or so, it turns out it is more like about 6%, and your body simply adapts to that also. The same holds true for doing HIIT.
Utilize cardio for what it is best for you. If you want to be a sprinter, or increase endurance a bit faster, then HIIT may be for you. If you want to hold muscle and burn fat, think about it.
You don't see Ronnie Coleman jumping hurdles! :big_smile:
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/03/24, 11:23 AM
There is a curve, and when you exceed that curve, MG becomes the predominant player.
The idea behind cardio is threefold, first is to be an extension of your diet(thus add to your calorie deficit), fat burn, and cardiovascular health.
Why would you burn so many more calories doing a HIIT protocol. After the initial frenzy with it, I started doing some research and testing.
The higher the output, your body shifts to a different substrate, it simply has to! FFA's simply cannot be mobilized that quickly.
So, if you are going to do cardio, and you are doing it for fat burn, why not do it the best way that fat is utilized during the endeavor?
Just as there was some high number floating around like muscle inceases metabolism by 40% or so, it turns out it is more like about 6%, and your body simply adapts to that also. The same holds true for doing HIIT.
Utilize cardio for what it is best for you. If you want to be a sprinter, or increase endurance a bit faster, then HIIT may be for you. If you want to hold muscle and burn fat, think about it.
You don't see Ronnie Coleman jumping hurdles! :big_smile:
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/03/24, 09:05 PM
I have been a member of this site since July and have gone from 265 to yesterdays weight of 208 I simply followed the work out plan that was supplied to me on this site. I have been suffering from a bulging L4 L5 disc for over 9 years which has limited my workout routine mostly lower back exercises such as dead lifts and sit-ups. About a month ago I went to a back specialist and was given a nerve blocker through an epidural injection. It has worked and now I can do sit-ups and leg lifts with out any pain. I have followed a simple daily routine 5-6 days a week
Each day I get up at 7am and drink a whey protein shake with a banana ¼ cup of pure oatmeal and skim milk then I go to the gym and lift for about an hour and then do cardio on the elliptical for 30 minutes Monday Wednesday and Friday and 20 min on Tuesday and Thursday each cardio session I average 6.7 minute miles on the double hills level 7. Immediately after I drink a protein shake with water and one teaspoon of pure corn sugar.
My remaining daily meals consist of salad with tuna/chicken/beef for lunch and a protine bar or shake around 3pm the dinner around 6pm portioned to the size of both fists and consisting of lean meat and lots of vegetables.
I am now questioning the cardio part of my routine after reading your post I am completely confused should I slow down and increase the time, to get the most efficient fat burn?
I can’t seem to burn off the remaining belly fat.
Thanks in advance for your advice….
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2006/03/25, 08:05 AM
ronnie coleman is on very large doses of vitamin S, so i wouldn't use him as an example. But I will take your advice and add it to my brain pile...
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If you have a strong enough why you can bear almost any how.
- Nietzsche
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2006/03/25, 11:19 AM
Amy...yes, Ronnie was an extreme case, but used it to try to make a point. I believe you are a Dave Draper fan if I remember correctly. He and his followers are high advocates of HIIT. So, I guess it depends on what "camp" you subscribe to. Mine is common sense.
I do believe an outstanding way to burn fat is if you mix in a cardio workout containing both...such as 15 minutes HIIT session, rest 5, then 40 min. steady state. This first protocol may "liberate" fats, and then the second part of the protocol burn them off.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/03/25, 11:24 AM
"Burning off" your remaining bf as you put it more than likely has to do with diet. Again, no matter how much cardio you do, it adds up in the end to one thing, a caloric deficit. If this deficit does not happen on a regular enough basis, all the cardio in the world will never "burn off" that fat.
This alone should be an indication of what cardio does...it is not the do all end all of fat burn. It is diet folks...again, how does the body know the difference between eating 250 less calories in a day, or using 250 more calories doing cardio? Other than cardiac health, surely not anything else as far as fat goes.
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Quoting from jayhill:
I have been a member of this site since July and have gone from 265 to yesterdays weight of 208 I simply followed the work out plan that was supplied to me on this site. I have been suffering from a bulging L4 L5 disc for over 9 years which has limited my workout routine mostly lower back exercises such as dead lifts and sit-ups. About a month ago I went to a back specialist and was given a nerve blocker through an epidural injection. It has worked and now I can do sit-ups and leg lifts with out any pain. I have followed a simple daily routine 5-6 days a week
Each day I get up at 7am and drink a whey protein shake with a banana ¼ cup of pure oatmeal and skim milk then I go to the gym and lift for about an hour and then do cardio on the elliptical for 30 minutes Monday Wednesday and Friday and 20 min on Tuesday and Thursday each cardio session I average 6.7 minute miles on the double hills level 7. Immediately after I drink a protein shake with water and one teaspoon of pure corn sugar.
My remaining daily meals consist of salad with tuna/chicken/beef for lunch and a protine bar or shake around 3pm the dinner around 6pm portioned to the size of both fists and consisting of lean meat and lots of vegetables.
I am now questioning the cardio part of my routine after reading your post I am completely confused should I slow down and increase the time, to get the most efficient fat burn?
I can’t seem to burn off the remaining belly fat.
Thanks in advance for your advice….
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/03/27, 07:24 AM
I am not ion anyone's "camp".
I do try to take what makes sense and is usable from every program I look at/try.
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Quoting from bb1fit:
Amy...yes, Ronnie was an extreme case, but used it to try to make a point. I believe you are a Dave Draper fan if I remember correctly. He and his followers are high advocates of HIIT. So, I guess it depends on what "camp" you subscribe to. Mine is common sense.
I do believe an outstanding way to burn fat is if you mix in a cardio workout containing both...such as 15 minutes HIIT session, rest 5, then 40 min. steady state. This first protocol may "liberate" fats, and then the second part of the protocol burn them off.
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If you have a strong enough why you can bear almost any how.
- Nietzsche
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2006/03/27, 09:00 AM
AMEN!!! BB1...I now coach girls varsity track at my school and I've been using your research as a guideline for their eating habits. Its unbelievable how so many high school level coaches do not monitor their team's diet and exercise regimens. Obviously, the bottom quote does not pertain to my track girls but they belive that if they run, run, run, they'll lose the weight. I have them eating healthy and keeping the calories up(especially for the long distance runners). Its the ignorance that bothers me the most. These girls have NO idea about nutrition and exercise. I actually had to kick 2 girls off the team because they just joined for the sake of losing weight(they were already thin). I worked with the both of them to get them on the right track but they continued to starve themselves and come to practice. They are recieving outside help now. Anyway, you research can be justified by our collective results. I.E...this is the diet and cardio plan we used during our competitions...look at the results. IT WORKS!!
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Quoting from bb1fit:
"Burning off" your remaining bf as you put it more than likely has to do with diet. Again, no matter how much cardio you do, it adds up in the end to one thing, a caloric deficit. If this deficit does not happen on a regular enough basis, all the cardio in the world will never "burn off" that fat.
This alone should be an indication of what cardio does...it is not the do all end all of fat burn. It is diet folks...again, how does the body know the difference between eating 250 less calories in a day, or using 250 more calories doing cardio? Other than cardiac health, surely not anything else as far as fat goes.
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2006/03/27, 12:36 PM
Good to hear. :)
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Quoting from asimmer:
I am not ion anyone's "camp".
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/04/03, 12:57 PM
There seems to be much contorversy as to fasted state cardio being better in some way than fed state. Well, digging up some research to back up my stance(never in a fasted state unless you have plenty of fat to spare), I present this.....
Further supporting the evidence in favor of fed cardio in trained men, Febbraio’s team investigated the effects of carb ingestion pre & during training in easily one of the best-designed trials on this topic . Subjects exercised for 2 hrs at an intensity level of 63% VO2 max, which is now known as the point of maximal fat oxidation during exercise . Result? Pre & during-training carbs increased performance - and there was no difference in total fat oxidation between the fasted and fed subjects. Despite the elevated insulin levels in the carb-fueled groups, there was no difference in fat availability or fat utilization.
Summing up the research findings
• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/04/30, 09:57 PM
Jay I have to say out of all the comments I've read on here. It was Fantastic to read that your program was a successful one. Good for you. CC
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2006/04/30, 10:00 PM
Not to take away from the info. It too was enlightening.
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2006/05/05, 06:53 AM
ok.. I was getting it.. now I confused AGAIN! heheh
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2006/05/11, 03:13 PM
i hear alot about HIIT. can someone explain to me what that is?
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Quoting from bb1fit:
There is a curve, and when you exceed that curve, MG becomes the predominant player.
The idea behind cardio is threefold, first is to be an extension of your diet(thus add to your calorie deficit), fat burn, and cardiovascular health.
Why would you burn so many more calories doing a HIIT protocol. After the initial frenzy with it, I started doing some research and testing.
The higher the output, your body shifts to a different substrate, it simply has to! FFA's simply cannot be mobilized that quickly.
So, if you are going to do cardio, and you are doing it for fat burn, why not do it the best way that fat is utilized during the endeavor?
Just as there was some high number floating around like muscle inceases metabolism by 40% or so, it turns out it is more like about 6%, and your body simply adapts to that also. The same holds true for doing HIIT.
Utilize cardio for what it is best for you. If you want to be a sprinter, or increase endurance a bit faster, then HIIT may be for you. If you want to hold muscle and burn fat, think about it.
You don't see Ronnie Coleman jumping hurdles! :big_smile:
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2006/05/13, 06:42 PM
Don't be confused....this "techy" stuff is mainly for bodybuilders(or wannabe's). In your case, just do what works for you. :) Calories burnt...this adds to your calorie deficit, will result in a fat loss if you are going below your maintenance level. This is the bottom line....suggestion, a combination of diet and energy output is ideal...I suggest 75%/25%, diet/energy output. See what I mean by my statement you have seen over and over, make cardio an extension of your diet, not the other way around.
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Quoting from vadwear:
ok.. I was getting it.. now I confused AGAIN! heheh
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/05/16, 10:10 PM
You also have to take into consideration different body and metabolism types. Every one has "their own" way. Different strokes for different folks. If it works great if it doesn't leave it and find something that does.
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2006/12/13, 12:26 PM
I just posted basically this same thing in another thread, of relevance here also....you cannot 'choose' what fuel your body uses...what happend during your training session is for the most part irrelevant..training is simply the stimulus to make changes...the changes occur provided what you do to maximise what you did in the gym.
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Maximus from Gladiator....Strength and Honor!
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2007/03/01, 04:45 PM
what if you weights and cardio in the same session, is it better to do cardio before or after....and should it be a longer session or short ?? ( for fat burning)
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coconutgirl
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2007/04/07, 11:29 PM
cardio should be done after weights and ideally in HIIT form around 30 mins..
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2007/04/08, 03:56 PM
I agree, cardio after strength trng, it just feels rite. If fat burning is also your main goal then it goes along way to burn more calories. Just remember its easy to overtrain while doing this. Recommend to limit these type work-outs to no more than 1.5 hours a day, & 3-4 times a week max. Be carefull you may just turn into a fitness junkie, and become very healthy.
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"Get everthing you want--just make a little change now"
"The thing you have to realize is that you have to work for it,"
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2007/04/09, 10:49 AM
:)yeah, I like it when people tell me that exercising every day is excessive...we are made to move and should be moving most of the time!
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Permanence, perseverance and persistence in spite of all obstacles, discouragements, and impossibilities: It is this, that in all things distinguishes the strong soul from the weak.
Thomas Carlyle
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2007/04/09, 02:18 PM
Yes, activity is the key. What people are not doing is the problem. :dumbbell:
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"Get everthing you want--just make a little change now"
"The thing you have to realize is that you have to work for it,"
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2007/05/01, 05:25 PM
I have a huge problem right now.. i might get kicked out of the military because after i had my daughter i couldnt take the weight back off. I know you have to work out and eat right. The problem is, how do you come up with a work out and nuitrition plan? How do i know if i'm doing the most effective/quickest thing? I have to lose this weight as fast as possible (healthly). So how do you lose 35 pounds in the quickest way possible, or how do you go about finding that out? right now I'm on a 2,000 cal. diet and i'm working out 3 or 4 times a week doing an hour on the treadmill and going on the Oliptical or bike for the other hour. Then I'll do resistance training for a half hour. It's worked so far, but i know it's not the best thing i could do in the fastest time frame. HELP ME PLEASE!!!
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2008/02/01, 05:27 PM
Have you tried working out intensively 4 times a week, and light 2 days? Example:
Monday - Weight Lifting circuit, heavy for 30 minutes. w/ Cardio mix for 20 minutes, stretch for 10
Tuesday - Cardio Intense for 45 minutes - 2 minutes medium, 2 minutes high pace - alternate until completed
Wednesday - Light weight and cardio mix
Thursday - Heavy weight 30 minutes, Cardio mix 25 minutes
Friday - Weights only high intensity for 45 minutes
Saturday - Medium Intesntiy Cardio 40 - 60 minutes
Sunday - Day off
Depending on how your body responds, I have always lost more fat by incorporating weights along w/ cardio. Does your gym have a cardio / weight circut? This is great way to burn fat!! Or do heavy weights, then cardio immediately afterwards. Sweat will drip off your face.
Be sure you are eating clean. Not a lot of caffine, sugar, or salt during the week, and only allow 1 cheat day. All the hard work you do in a week can be cancelled out quickly by straying off your diet.
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Quoting from hardcore4lyfe:
I have a huge problem right now.. i might get kicked out of the military because after i had my daughter i couldnt take the weight back off. I know you have to work out and eat right. The problem is, how do you come up with a work out and nuitrition plan? How do i know if i'm doing the most effective/quickest thing? I have to lose this weight as fast as possible (healthly). So how do you lose 35 pounds in the quickest way possible, or how do you go about finding that out? right now I'm on a 2,000 cal. diet and i'm working out 3 or 4 times a week doing an hour on the treadmill and going on the Oliptical or bike for the other hour. Then I'll do resistance training for a half hour. It's worked so far, but i know it's not the best thing i could do in the fastest time frame. HELP ME PLEASE!!!
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2011/07/19, 11:04 PM
I'd much rather do cardio, do it fast and get it out of the way so I can go on my merry way..
Do cardio after weight workout.
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2016/09/15, 10:41 AM
weight training and HIIT is the way, 1-2HIIT per week with 4 days weight training splits do wonders :) Also high rep squats (30-40) are really good for fat burning
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Cardio and fat burn
