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2006/02/13, 01:07 AM
Thanks menace for trying to answer. I wasn't really looking for specific advice on a routine, I already have one that I think is working decently. Or at least, my squat is improving anyway. I was just sort of wondering about the biomechanics of it. If no one is really sure thats cool. Interesting that you say that about the deadlift though, most people tell me the same thing about the squat. I plan to work then in in a couple weeks either way.
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2006/02/13, 01:31 AM
In HS I couldn't touch the rim, as I started doing heavy hyperexntesions and then deadlifts about 4 years ago, I literally gained a foot in vertical, ...the difference in vertical coincided with huge increase in my deadlift...squat has always been a problem lift for me...I probably can do a goodmorning with almost as much weight as I can squat...
just hope your routine doesn't have special shoes in that training...LOL
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2006/02/08, 01:12 AM
I'm sure there is someone here smart enough to answer this. When comparing jumping ability with my friend, we found that while I can jump higher than him off one foot, but he can jump significantly higher than me off two. Also, he has almost no difference between his standing vertical and his running one, whereas the difference in mine is pretty significant. Does anyone know what causes these differences? Also would they indicate anything specific to work on or anything about muscle weaknesses?
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2006/02/08, 04:56 AM
Technique can be an issue....
I would guess two footed jumpers use more lower back/hamstrings to generate explosiveness.....One footed jumpers use more calves...
I am a two footed jumper...I can barely touch the rim of one foot running, yet my best running jump was around 45 inches off 2 feet....pretty drastic....I also have a considerable difference standstill and running...between 6-8 inches...and I jump around 35-36 inches standstill...too bad I am only 5'11/6 lol...
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2006/02/09, 12:37 PM
http://asb-biomech.org/onlineabs/NACOB98/224/index.html
http://www.avca.org/sportsmed/smpcBIObibliography.html
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2006/02/09, 05:30 PM
Thanks, I read the first one and it was interesting, although I'm not sure what the second was for. I already stagger my steps when I jump, but it did say something about balance betwee then two legs. Like if one leg is way stronger then the other leg would push less otherwise you'd turn sideways in the air. It's interesting though because I jump off my right leg, but I am left handed so I'm assuming my left leg is actually stronger. Jumping 1 footed though I can barely dunk off my left leg. I don't know how much transfer being able to jump off my left leg would have to 2 footed jumping though.
On a side note if you jump 45 inches you can dunk at 5'11, which is amazing.
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2006/02/10, 11:07 PM
I dunno dude 45 inches is awfully high even for 5'11" to not be dunkin easy man. At my best, I've had about a 30" vertical off two and about 33 to 35" running off one foot and I'm only 6'2" with a short wingspan. When I had that jumping ability, I was dunkin like crazy. I could dunk off a dropstep and off of one foot I could dunk two handed (requires no palming) any time I wanted to. I'm not saying you didn't have a 45" vertical I'm just sayin dude that's very high and maybe you just need to learn dunkin techniques cuz you are skyin to not be able to absolutely bang!
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/02/11, 04:21 AM
I think I might have slightly messed up....I underestimated my standing reach by 3 inches(93 not 90), so my best ever was closer to 42 inches...which is still pretty high...but u are right, I have poor balance, timing(hence can't alley oop), and jumping techniques....which are crucial for great jumping...it was at a playground....so I am doubting whether that rim was really 10 feet...but all I can say is running I jumped off 2 feet and I came 2-3 inches of touching my right elbow to the rim...on other jumps that day I had both hands over the rim(maybe even 1 inch over each hand) and I brought my left hand up late into the jumps...that was closest I came to dunking...my friends sucked giving me a good alley oop, but on that day with a decent toss I would have had it(I came close on a alley that was too high to the side which I had to bring back, but my hands are somewhat small for that so that was that)....
generally ,I can get over 35 inches no problem...Last week I got 10 inches over the rim...which was around 37 inches on my best jump ...but this was at 220lb indoor gym...vs ~200lb...were i got probably extra 5 inches....at a playground...
My standing jumps are about 31-34 inches....I got 33 last week...
I am getting pissed at my inability to dunk...over the years I haven't really trained calves...on top they are fairly stiff...so i started stretching more...and training them harder....after my last workout, they are very sore for 2 straight days....which for me is an indication of a step in the right direction....
I am also taking DeFranco's suggestion of strethcing my Hip Flexors...I thought they were fairly loose...I tried one of his stretches, resembling a lunge with arms up...again...a wrong assumption on my part, I could feel some tightness as I descended into the stretch...so i'll try stretching, calves/hip flexors, and doing work....
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2006/02/11, 06:33 AM
i usually read and dont post but you guys are bass akwards if some young buck came in this furom and ask if he should do 10reps on heavy weights to ad mass,you guys would tell him this is a powerlifting thread and direct him the other way so show the same strict form when it comes to something you like,like b-ball,man i've read stuff here a hundred times where guys say powerlifting is bench,squat,and deadlift not 3 foot dunks!if your gonna be strict start at the front door,dont tell the newbies one thing and do another b-ball is general excersise no matter how hard then training might be!all training is hard!:)
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2006/02/11, 08:24 AM
All out jumps are a form of power training...hence a whole way of training called plyometrics...where the focus is the speed/acceleration with which the lighter weight is lifted....this forum is strength/power related...it's not purely powerlifting...if you look through this forum there are other threads on these topics....bench/deadlift/squat are emphasized in any forum on this site...we tend to emphasize the 'low reps'....but that's a whole different story....you can use same exercises for different goals through different applications...that's our point...if u want 20 inch arms this is the wrong forum to post that...if u want washboard abs and big pecs...same thing....this is not a forum of aesthetics...as wrestler said it's a forum for athletics.....ie performance...that's directly related to power/strength/speed/acceleration etc...
alright u got me puzzled...what's a 3 footed dunk? (you must be one lucky guy to be able to use your other appendage(s) to propel yourself for a dunk...)
When 'newbies' come to this forum it's usually things they should be posting in the Beginners forum or bodybuilder/general forum....however this forum is as much for athletic discussions as powerlifting...and even then we try to answer the person's question or refer them to the right source.....don't understand what you find so hypocritical in our discussion...
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2006/02/11, 01:45 PM
3 feet give or take 30'' to 45''. it was a referance to arondaballer saying a 30 to 45 inch jump should be a easy dunk,and it should be.im not trying to be a wiseass,i just looked over my last post and maybe i could have worded things differently.my point would not have been made then.menace i respect your opinion more than anyone else on this board,and even though you will tell others the different forums you will usually answer there question first then direct them,and you have answered my questions in the past,but i see it all the time bench,deadlift,squat point blank.i have seen guys say the curl is not needed.i get what your saying explosive jumps from heavy squats,but i just dont think thats powerlifting.different strokes for different folks. i disagree but still value your opinions..i could be wrong thats why i come here to listen and learn:dumbbell:
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2006/02/11, 04:52 PM
This is a powerlifting and STRENGTH training forum. No one in here limits themselves to the big 3. Even Gatormade, who is a competitive powerlifter does the olympic lifts and GPP work. I probably do more pulling than pressing, and I consider myself a powerlifter.
Bench and deadlift will bring up a vertical jump, this isn't a meathead powerlifter comment, it is a fact based on research and a basic knowledge of biomechanics. So will powercleans, snatches, and other olympic lifts.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/12, 10:53 AM
Sorry if the question is in the wrong place. I felt like it was somewhat pertinent and it seems like the most knowledgeable people tend to congregate in this forum so I put it here. Thanks to all who attempted to answer, and on a side note, Ed you might want to consider some punctuation and grammar, your posts are nearly unreadable.
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2006/02/12, 06:38 PM
Retro there are plenty of questions on jumping in this forum...this forum is as much about sports performance as it is about pure powerlifting sport....there's lots of info in posts started by Arondaballer....he really improved his vertical...so it might be useful to you....
Retro not sure about specific imbalances you have...my guess is that if you jump higher of 1 foot, I am guessing it's just left foot with your right arm? so that if you don't jump as high off right foot then you may have a muscle imbalances....
To jump better of 2 feet, I really found heavy deadlifts very heavy. I think they might chain the posterior chain better than squats even. Make sure your lower back, glutes, and hamstrings are strong. These are the muscles that give you about 70% of your vertical. Calves can give you as much as 30%.
I also suggest you try stretching you hip flexors before jumping, it's about few times where static stretching is beneficial before lifting/jumping. Stretching calves is also a good idea.
I would do heavy deadlifts every 3 week with weight 1-3 reps for sets of 5-8...I would test the max once every 2-3 months. Two out of three weeks do HEAVY hyperextensions on the glute/ham machine. You can also do Heavy powercleans(Assuming you got good technique). I would throw in Goodmornings as well from time to time. If you got reverse hyperexntension machine then use it after the other exercises...
Squats help give you a strength base. Doing jump squats is better transfering to vertical.
I started doing sitting calf raises, in a ballistic fashion...where as soon as my calves touch the floor, I explode up, using the momentum, get on my toes as much as I can and then drop down quickly......
Once you get a good strength base, you can try doing plyometrics. There are tons of exercises and they help. I think because many of the exercises are so close to jumping they have the best carry over.
Finally practice your form, the faster you can jump off the ground, the higher you'll jump.
I also suggest reading DeFranco's website on jumping, lots of useful information there.
(Ed is prolly shaking his head. Saying to himself 'damn hypocrites')....LOL
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2006/02/12, 06:40 PM
err, I am guessing when you jump of 1 foot, it's primary the left foot*
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2006/02/12, 06:44 PM
god, my post has so many errors, makes me shake my head. We need a spell check.
To jump better of 2 feet, I really found heavy deadlifts to be useful*. I think they might train* the posterior chain better than squats even.
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2006/02/13, 01:33 AM
got mine for $120, man was that a waste of money...LOL....
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2006/02/13, 01:35 PM
The special shoes are decent for certain things and they work OK for beginners. I bought them in 8th grade and they increased my vertical probably 2 inches after just walking around in them about 30 minutes for a few days. However, all they did was strengthen my calves and possibly improve my achilles tendons, and I was in the 8th grade, but after I started using them vigorously by running in them and doing plyos and stuff, they damaged my achilles tendons and I have had problems with them ever since.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/02/13, 01:45 PM
Menace, you're right, deadlifts are great for increasing the vertical. Especially ones that have you go deep into the hole such as off of about a 4 inch box or using a snatch grip.
Retrofish, the power distribution in the muscles and technique have a lot to do with your power off of one or two feet. There is a big difference in the two. For instance, your hip swing, calf power, balance, and of course power in your posterior chain has a lot to do with one-footed jumping ability. Ideal exercises for one footed jumping power: One legged hyperextensions, bulgarian split squats, one legged calf raises, resisted hip flexion, or any single leg specialized plyometric exercise such as explosive step ups or single legged calf jumps are awesome for gains. When jumping off of two feet, a lot depends on power of the posterior chain and calves as well. Like menace said, deadlifts and hypers are great. Squats, calf raises, and plyometrics such as standing jumps, box jumps, etc. are great for more two legged power. Also, dynamic box squats are great. Especially with bands.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/02/13, 06:20 PM
The biomechanics of one leg vs two?
Of of one leg, you are using more torso extension and upper body momentum (body english) in order to achieve height. Also, a one legged jump is more quad dominant than a two legged jump. You will generally descend deeper into a two legged jump than a one legged jump, which will bring more of your posterior chain into play.
With a two legged jump, you have the power of both legs, so you do not rely on upper body momentum as much.
In addition, in a two legged jump, calves account for very little of your power. However, triple extension is paramount in a single leg jump.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/13, 07:32 PM
Thanks wrestler, I figured you would know. Also to aron, I haven't heard of a few of those, they sound cool. In case anyone is interested the routine I'm doing now seems to be raising my squat, which in turn is raising my vertical. I'm going to keep squatting for 6-8 more weeks and then switch to deadlifting on my ME lower day for a bit. Hopefully things will keep working out.
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2006/02/13, 08:35 PM
Why limit yourself within a macrocycle? Why not alternate them?
I would not advise deadlifting heavy every week for periods. I deadlift every other week, and this is even considering the fact that I train lower body 3 days a week, 4 if you include strongman training.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/13, 09:27 PM
It's sort of like an if it isn't broke, don't fix it thing. I lift lower body twice a week. One day I do DE box squats and another I do some ME exercise. I switch the ME exercise every 3 weeks, the first three I did parallel box squats, I'm in the middle of doing some box squats a few inches above parallel to get used to heavier weight, and then I'm going to do some below parallel to get some strength out of the hole. I'm jumping a couple inches higher already, and I'm figuring doing this will increase my max squat as well. After this I was going to work in some deadlifting either weekly or alternating it with squatting biweekly.
Feel free to critique this all you want, although I'm going finish before I implement any changes. I don't recover if I lift lower body more than two times a week, and sometimes I cut workouts short anyway if I've been playing a lot of basketball.
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2006/02/14, 12:20 AM
3 weeks sounds a little better. To squat for 6 weeks, than deadlift for 6 weeks is not near as effective as you could be.
If you are set on deadlifting every week, I would alternate between DE and ME. Do 6*1 or something similar after your ME squat work one week, then the next do ME DL.
I personally have not been a huge fan of DE deadlift though, as I get lots of high speed pulling through olympic lifts. I am falling in love with the snatch.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/14, 12:45 AM
This is good lifting, but if your main goal is really just for jumping, you could be doing much better. I realize that you just want to finish this out and that's fine man, it couldn't hurt. There is a sample program by Joe DeFranco that is the works for jumping man. It has squatting, single leg stuff, deadlifting, plyos, dynamic lifting, and olympic lifts at one point or another. I'm going to work it in sometime after the season. Here's the link: http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_03-10-10.htm#question01
It's just 6 weeks. You might wanna try it sometime.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/02/14, 01:17 AM
Thanks aron I forgot I'd seen that, I'm bookmarking it for later use. Those lifts aren't all I do obviously, I do plyometrics on my DE days, I also add in a single leg stuff and abs. I'd like to get my squat up to around 1.5 my bodyweight before I start doing anything too advanced.
Wrestler- I'm only going to deadlift for a couple weeks at most. Assuming I get a squat PR out of this I could use more lower back strength to stabilize the bar on heavier squats. Also I only do about 3 heavy sets of 1-3 for my deadlift. That's all I've needed to do to have it work for me in the past.
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2006/02/14, 01:11 PM
I think weight and build could be a factor.....longer tendons vs longer muscles.....Longer arms vs shorter etc.
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Get your bicep curling, cut off shirt, matching workout outfit wearing,flexing in mirror "toned" wanna-be ass , out of my squat rack!
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/02/14, 05:32 PM
or distribution of muscle fibers...type I verses type IIa and IIb?
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Get your bicep curling, cut off shirt, matching workout outfit wearing,flexing in mirror "toned" wanna-be ass , out of my squat rack!
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/02/14, 05:38 PM
or distribution of muscle fibers...type I verses type IIa and IIb?
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Get your bicep curling, cut off shirt, matching workout outfit wearing,flexing in mirror "toned" wanna-be ass , out of my squat rack!
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2006/02/16, 01:03 AM
Thats true. If I did this routine I would be solely concerned with jumping. If anyone makes fun of me for having a low bench I'll dunk on them. I'll post some stuff here when I start that other routine. Thanks for all the advice.
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2006/02/16, 01:44 AM
Bulgarian split squat is up and down, in lunge...you make a forward movement...hence the name 'lunge'..
I would do ME day for upper day and go very heavy...this will allow you to do 1 workout every 1-2 weeks and still make progress...I have done it for years and it's definitely effective....you may need to increase frequency to get over plateaus but it's effective at making small progress or keeping your gains while you're focusing on other goals....this way you can do 2-3 lower body days if you really want to per week....
Military Presses
Chin Ups
Dips
Rows
I would go to the last good rep you can do....don't do reps you can't get a full rep with...I would train with heavy reps 5 and under....I like this form of training because it places a lot of stress on the CNS and creates the need for a long supercompensation period....modified HIT type programs can be effective if they are done in a smart way...that is proper accounting for the amount of stress you're putting on the body and allowing for a sufficient off period...or light training....
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2006/02/15, 05:27 PM
Aron- is there any difference between bulgarian split squats and barbell lunges? Also for DeFranco's program would you be going as heavy as possible on all the lifts accept for obviously the box squats? I'll probably give this a shot after I get done with what I'm currently doing, do you want me to post a workout log of how it goes?
Wrestler- What would you recommend for the upper body days on this http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_03-10-10.htm#question01
DE/ME upper days or doing splits seem to be the options.
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2006/02/15, 09:50 PM
I would say DE/ME sounds advisable. In fact, I am very familiar with the DeFranco Principles, and most of the individuals that train at his facility (which I had the good fortune of gracing) train following a conjugated template.
The specifics would depend of course on your goals and what you are willing to sacrifice to achieve them (I have trained athletes that "only care about my 40 time" but seem upset when they are only bench pressing once every week or two.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/16, 12:37 PM
With a bulgarian split squat, your back leg is elevated to knee level.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/16, 01:04 PM
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBLunge.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSingleLegSplitSquat.html
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2006/02/16, 05:12 PM
However, the BULGARIAN single leg squat was an exercise that was first popularized during an olympic training session that witnessed the bulgarians doing said exercise:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://web.mensfitness.com/images/mf/208491/6747.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mensfitness.com/fitness/workout/67&h=200&w=195&sz=33&tbnid=iB3XA48l1o8FtM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=96&hl=en&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbulgarian%2Bsplit%2Bsquat%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/16, 05:14 PM
May be a good idea to delete that last post (with the long url) in favor of this one.
http://web.mensfitness.com/images/mf/208491/6747.jpg
With a bulgarian split squat, a single leg variation of the lunge that was popularized during the bulgarian's domination of olympic weight lifting.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/22, 07:29 PM
Does anyone know where I can find instructions with pictures how to perform dumbell swings? I tried looking for about half an hour and I couldn't find anything. Also, I'm assuming I should be doing these with one arm.
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2006/02/22, 08:29 PM
I don't really have time to look for or post a URL or anything, but on DeFranco's I believe you can find a description of them...I believe they're in his top 15 vertical exercises article. Hopefully that will help
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/02/22, 08:54 PM
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=849528
http://www.homefitness101.com/forum/index.php?s=0d2865f8130e982488d9ec2aa0bb29ce&act=Attach&type=post&id=2873
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2006/02/22, 10:30 PM
I'm confused, do you swing across the body or straight up? Some of the pictures I've found make it look like you start in a sort of squat position and the swing your arm out straight and then straight over your head. That second picture looks like you swing across.
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