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2006/12/13, 03:58 PM
I read an article a couple of days ago that definitely made me think. It's an article by Poliquin on T-Nation, and he says that he doesn't recommend box squats to any athlete, unless you are a powerlifter (which a lot of you are). However, in my case as a basketball player and athletic performance enthusiast, this really jumped out at me. After all, all I have ever heard are the benefits.
Poliquin did not say that box squats were useless or that an athlete wouldn't benefit at all, but he said that they weren't the best bang for your buck because the shins don't travel forward in the exercise.
Here's the url: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=F62C34B19C6CD5F8CD0EC23AFD8EA623.hydra?id=1371812
Any thoughts?
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/12/13, 04:13 PM
I remember doing box squats in high school for football. I like them for personal reasons, but I'm curious as to why he would say that.
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--JBennett
"I've up-ed my intensity.... now up yours!"
"Pain is only weakness leaving the body."
"Never think of how weak you are; think of how strong you're going to be."
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2006/12/13, 04:15 PM
I didn't even bother to go read his article because from what your saying IMO tell me he is full of crap or misinformed.
Bar non IF YOU CAN squats are the King and if your an athlete you need a strong core and legs. I have seen some serious routines done by football players and wrestlers.
Just think of it like this, you squat and your opponent does leg curls, Who's going to bump who off the line? Who's going to knock who down fighting for the ball? Not Mr. Leg Curls thats for sure!
Sorry but it's my opinion because squats BARBELL SQUATS work so much more then most people think, Balance and Stability!
Then again most people don't squat right. I watch a 60 dollar an hour trainer working some dude out and he wasn't even really moving at all in the squat but had alot of weight on the bar, guy looked like he was blowing farts not squating!
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2006/12/13, 04:27 PM
Barry Bonds,
You should have at least bothered...Don't be so closed-minded as to think that it is so ridiculous of an idea.
If you had read the article, you would have seen that Poliquin does not merely suggest leg curls, but he says there are many other great exercises...deadlifts, cleans, etc. Dude, these are awesome strength moves.
Yes, squats are great and absolutely essential for beginners, but I definitely wouldn't give them TOO MUCH credit from an athletic perspective, though this is an entirely different subject. By the way, he is talking about BOX SQUATS, not just squats.
He has some good points, so don't just shrug it off. You'lle never learn that way.
I think it's funny that you say Charles Poliquin is "misinformed." Considering, he is a well-renowned strength coach with much experience. He's not just some retard.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/12/13, 04:42 PM
man....you guys are testy in here lately.....
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2006/12/13, 04:45 PM
I read that article on t-nation and sherdog and it made me think. This is not some e-tard saying some random crap out of his a$$... this is a renowned S&C coach....
Also he was criticizing BOX squats for persons outside of powerlifting which is not that crazy....Dave tate/Louie Simmons/etc made them popular because they carry over so well to the squats but as to whether they are best for sports performance that's a different topic altogether...
But there are plenty of other squat variations(OH, front, back, split, etc) as well as deadlift variations that most athletes will have more than enough variety. He's in no way advocating doign leg curls for squats or some other nonsense you tried to imply.
Best advice is to read the freaking article before making assumptions. It also helps to know who the person you're talking about is.
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2006/12/13, 04:49 PM
KC,
You're right...gotta be "nicer." Guess the roids are getting to me. :laugh:
Sorry Barry, I respect your opinion.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/12/13, 04:58 PM
:(Oops! some how by-passed the word BOX and that it was on Squats Period!
Like I have said before my feet taste good so therefore I must at least once a month stick both right in my mouth!:surprised:
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2006/12/13, 05:00 PM
Oops! some how by-passed the word BOX and that it was on Squats Period!
Thought, not THAT it was :angry:
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2006/12/13, 05:05 PM
It's all good.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/12/13, 05:21 PM
ahhhh....it was funny though....gotta a good laugh out of "barry"...and e-tard....
MVP just got a little ballsy because bb1 paid him a compliment in another post...I believe his head has been deflated now...:)
You guys are HUGELY funny when you want to be....
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2006/12/13, 06:13 PM
before reading other responses...
Poliquin often recommends seated good mornings, pull throughs, etc as a way to train the posterior chain. When was the last time you saw an athlete doing a seated good morning in practice?
Poliquin is refering to the times when you have 10 weeks to train an athlete, you want sport specific patterns. Unless I'm misread it, he doesn't like them because they allow you to sit back so far, which is WHY they are such a good exercise for the posterior chain.
I like poliquin, and it is true that he is not only cutting edge, but he is the one who sharpens it. However, for me personally, as a competitive strength athlete, they will be in my routine for a while to come.
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Iron and chalk.
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2006/12/13, 06:17 PM
Menace, I think you are reading a bit too much into them. Yes they transfer well to powerlifters, BECAUSE they are an excellent exercise for the posterior chain WHICH is the source of athletic power. Tell me how a good morning can be "athletic" and a box squat can't...?
I do agree that there are other exercises, and there are a lot of athletes I don't recommend squats to at all. But there is no reason to kick out a movement that has shown such great results with so many people.
Proof is in the pudding.
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Iron and chalk.
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2006/12/13, 06:19 PM
also, the reason that powerlifters sit back so far in the box squat is because that is the most effective way to squat for a 1rm.
However, the shin doesnt travel forward because of this. But who is to say you have to squat so far back. One of our lifters squats off a low box, olympic style. And it works great for him.
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Iron and chalk.
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2006/12/13, 06:41 PM
Box squats keep athletes on the court, field, etc during the season. They also teach one how to squat properly. Box squats are not the only answer but they are good for athletes. My volleyballers live on the box during the season because they feel better than regular squats. I use them in combination with front squats, deadlifts, and overhead squats in the off-season. Plus squatting back teaches proper recruitment of the posterior chain. This is vital to jumping and landing properly. Too many athletes are quad dominant and do not how to properly engage their posterior chain. Box squatting helps reinforce this.
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2006/12/13, 06:48 PM
I will say it again:
Box squats are an important piece of the puzzle in my training philosophy. It is the one squat variation 99% of my athletes can do during the season. Alot of times they are to beat up to front squat, regular back squat, or overhead squat. Jumping and landing over 500 times a week for 18 weeks is a lot of impact. In-season training is the toughest training plan to write because it is a constant modification and is truely day to day. This is what separates a personal trainer who only trains athletes outside of their season and strength and conditioning practitioners that train them all year round.
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2006/12/13, 06:52 PM
And to make an absolute recommendation about any exercise for any group of athletes is extreme. There are very few training absolutes that you can apply to everyone. What may work for one may not work for another. I have one athlete that I don't even box squat. This individual does good mornings all season long. This person does leg extension. I am not a fan of machines but if it keeps an athlete strong and they can do it without aggravating their condition then I am all for it.
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2006/12/13, 08:28 PM
You see, I knew that a lot of people loved them, like Matt, DeFranco, and countless others, but I just was kinda suprised by it. Personally, I have used them a lot, and was doing them during my best gains ever in training.
My favorite jumping regimen also utilizes them in every workout. I just thought it was interesting, and our forum has gotten a bit dry lately...besides the arguments lol.
I agree with Matt that making absolute statements in this case is usually a bad idea. It reminds me of how DeFranco says that Olympic Lifts can be replaced by making other lifts dynamic. Even the most excellent of coaches can be flat out wrong.
I believe box squats can be great for athletes, ESPECIALLY dynamically. I just thought of something though- a good example for Poliquin: Imagine a basketball player positioning for a rebound and exploding upward to grab it. I think a box squat would definitely enhance performance in that area.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/12/13, 09:59 PM
While I don't agree entirely with DeFranco's recommendations concerning the olympic lifts, I think you may be a bit naive to be saying he is flatout wrong.
Try a standing long jump by squatting down into a full squat position. Now try it by almost doing a good morning, with much less knee flexion. I think the results will surprise you, but will show you how important the posterior chain is to jump performance.
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Iron and chalk.
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2006/12/14, 09:28 AM
Yes, definitely not the best choice of words (flat out wrong), even though I do not agree with it.
Yeah, I know what you mean about the posterior chain. This used to really confuse me concerning basketball performance. I rarely bent my knees far when jumping, and I would watch the pros, and they didn't either. The mechanics always kinda confused me.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/12/14, 04:31 PM
GMS are awesome. Helps train posterior chain and it hits the lower back harder than squats....I think Deadlifts/Gms may carry over better for sports performance than squats...perhaps it's the emphasis of the lower back....
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2006/12/14, 04:36 PM
If you think about the movement...Does it not seem that the thrust involved with an explosive DL or GM is so similar to a hip and back thrust involved in a jump or other athletic movement?
When I said I got my best results using Dynamic Box Squats... dynamic Stiff Leg DLs and High Pulls were also involved...Another exercise that is absolutely awesome but doesn't seem to get much credit are Single-Leg Hyperextensions.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2006/12/14, 09:04 PM
I got a lot of athleticism out of deadlift and heavy hypers.....freaking blew up my vertical and explosiveness....I always sucked at squats so I have to attribute it to those 2 exercises....
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2006/12/14, 11:07 PM
Yeah man, and I'm tellin you...those single-leg hypers are awesome for versatile athletic power if performed correctly.
You guys ever heard of doing olympic high pulls with one leg? One of my favorite coaches introduced me to this exercise, but said that you should have practiced the form and be careful with it.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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