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2003/02/11, 05:57 PM
Message deleted by moderator due to unsuitable content for this board.
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2003/02/11, 06:51 PM
Alot of these media hypes have come and gone. One I haven't noticed as much lately is the ripping gel. So like the rest, that theory of insulin spiking will be gone also!
Nice hit bb1fit.
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Nothing is too small to know, and nothing is too big to attempt!
Ivan Montreal Canada
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2003/02/14, 03:15 PM
Great question, bb1. I've been wondering - how does your body tell the difference between an insulin spike PWO and one at any other time of the day. How does the insulin 'know' to shuttle nutrients to your muscle instead of your fat cells? We all know for a fact that insulin is anabolic, but how does it discern when to be anabolic and when to make you fat. I'm not sure if I've ever seen this explained and didn't think to until I read your post. This is certainly something I'll look into more.
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2003/02/14, 03:46 PM
Okay, I found one good point (I'm just getting started) about this whole ordeal:
"Several researchers have shown that when a whey protein supplement is consumed in the presence of low insulin levels (such as after training), most of it is metabolized in energy restoration (oxidative) pathways and is not channeled toward muscle anabolism."
However, this has little to do with the insulin spike.
The site I started at made an arguement that I had forgotten about - a quick burst of high-glycemic carbs to reduce catabolism. The energy you use in working out leads to low blood sugar as you use the energy. This signals the body to breakdown more muscle (which is already weakened) to produce glucagon in the liver to bring blood sugar levels back up to baseline. And then, add in the above comment and that starts things up.
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2003/02/14, 06:02 PM
Well, my wife is a diabetic. So I have access to a blood sugar test. I have checked my blood sugar with this test many times for verification if it is low or not. On occasion it is, but not really very many times. And I would like to think that I work out as hard as anyone. Now, say for instance your blood sugar is not low, and you get that immediate spike,what will happen? Insulin does its best to stabilize things by driving sugar, or glucose into the muscle cells(best case scenario). The trouble may be, like a bag, the muscle cells can only hold so much. Excess glucose is converted to fatty acids and triglycerides by the liver and fat tissue. thus, the high inulin and glycogen concentrations induce the production and storage of fat. Plus, as I noted earlier, insulin counteracts the effects of HGH. I think if I had my choice of the 2, I would rather have high levels of HGH than insulin circulating.
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Failing to plan is like planning to fail!
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2003/02/17, 10:44 PM
bb1fit, can i post ur topic here over at mens health forums under a quote... i find it interesting and wanna know what ppl have to say about what u have just said.
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2003/02/18, 03:22 PM
I had a discussion with some folks about the effects of insulin on GH not too long ago. I think I posted this under another thread, too, but I'll mention it again.
Considering the relatively short length of insulin surges and the fact that GH production during the day is insignificant compared to nocturnal production, we had determined that insulin will only have any practical interference with GH if you were to spike it right before bed. A couple hours is probably more than long enough to wait after spiking insulin for your levels to return to baseline.
As far the rest of your points, I'm still digging. I'd like to figure this out one way or the other. Thanks for bringing it up!
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2003/02/18, 06:01 PM
Mack, your point is well taken, and I am in total agreement with what you have found on HGH. YOu are right, it is in spurts. But, as to the rest of things, I don't want any more theories and what research says. In this sport of bodybuilding, I have over the years seen many theories come and go. Some have sound basis, others completely off the wall. As I previously stated, I followed this insulin "jacking" ad nauseum. And I used supposedly the best, AST. Their atheletes are great, witness Skip Lacour, Jeff Willet, Derick Farnsworth, all multiple team Universe winners. But, how did they get where they are? Do you think maybe they had some OTHER (vitamins) for quite a while? Anyway, I did not make these fantastic gains as suggested, not even really great. I did gain love handles, but figured that was as usualy part of the gaining process. Upon dieting, I ended up with real close to the same, not much, but a little gain. No more had I done things conventionally. Most theory is put out by pencil pushing labcoat wearin guys behind a desk, that would never wear a tank top. So, I am debating on real world results, not paper results. I don't want to search the internet for answers, there is anything you want to find out there. I want to see and hear from some of these guys making these extraordinary gains. I would think with almost everyone following this protocol nowadays, I would see at least one or two in the gym! I will give you that restoring BS and thus glycogen are job 1 post training. But many things will raise BS, thus insulin. Do we need that much of a spike like pure sugar. Will at the very least your system get immune to this, thus more fat? Or if your BS is not that low, and you spike it dramatically, and the muscles are full, will it not spill over and become "fatabolic" rather than anabolic? If I am correct, I believe this whole thing was originally not even done with bodybuilders, but elite volleyball players after intense games that neede glycogen restored immediately. Anyway, Mack, can you give me results? Have you made these great gains? Surely you are following this protocol, and getting huge? Not picking, just want real answers with real people.
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Failing to plan is like planning to fail!
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2003/02/18, 07:43 PM
So bb1fit, by taking my creatine w/ grape juice after and before my workout, your telling me my body will not burn fat?
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2003/02/18, 10:05 PM
In the absence of glucose(the lower carb diets), the body is forced to find or make glucose. Really, gluconeogenesis which converts glycerol(from stored fat) to glucose. In this case, one stands to burn more fat than if a simple carb such as in grape juice is consumed. So, your goals should at the very least be taken inot account. If your main goal is fat loss, then you may want to think twice about the grape juice. If the body doesn't have to feed off itself anymore for glucose, then why should it?
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Failing to plan is like planning to fail!
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2003/02/19, 12:44 AM
Would it make a difference to use grape before the workout and water with creatine post workout? I thought the insulin boost was supposed to help you during the workout?
Basically where I stand now, 5'11 205lbs I do have body fat more then I need we could say, however I don't mind being 200+ lbs as long as its lean. So doing what I am doing now, would it make scense that by my weight training and cardio that once I get a good amount of muscle it will eat at the fat?
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2003/02/19, 12:55 PM
Unfortunately, bb1, with my relative lack of experience, I have nothing to go on but what the studies say. I haven't been in the training game long and I've always used carbs PWO, so I have nothing to compare it to. Don't get me wrong, I have no particular adherence to this method and perhaps I was never really convinced. Adding carbs PWO was one of the first things that I learned to do, way back before I had the knowledge to question it. So I guess I just stuck with it because that's the one of the first things I learned and I never gave it a second thought. I've tried to come up with good solid evidence for it, but haven't really found anything definitive. It's been posted on a couple of other boards so I guess I'll see what comes back. Lou Schuler, a well-known trainer and writer for Men's Health had this to say:
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I'm not a scientist either, but I think the post-workout-nutrition thing is mostly for guys trying to gain lean muscle mass, not necessarily guys trying to shed fat.
One thing about the research on PWO shakes is that it's all based on acute reactions to the shake, not chronic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone knows if these acute anabolic reactions to PWO nutrition translate to long-term muscle gains.
I understand the original poster's point about overloading the muscle cells, and thus inadvertently feeding fat stores, but I think he left out an important part of the equation: You have to shut down whatever catabolic processes are percolating after an extremely strenuous workout.
If your body is flooded with cortisol and in a catabolic state--if your muscles are giving up protein, in other words--it makes sense to close the spigot and put your body back into an anabolic state.
But, again, over time, we don't know if making that shift from negative to positive nitrogen balance immediately after a workout is crucial, or simply convenient.
I'll agree with him that it's probably a detail, and couldn't possibly be as important as the overall quality of your workouts and diet over time.
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Lou Schuler, CSCS Fitness Director, Men's Health
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So he doesn't really go solid either way. So I guess I'm going to have to seriously audit my PWO nutrition ideals . . .
Thanks for having the guts to defy convention.
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2003/02/19, 02:07 PM
Hey Mack, thanks for the great post, this is the kind of thing I wanted with this. I hope I didn't mislead into saying that I don't believe in carbs immediately post training, this is of course necessary. My problem is only with the high sugar spike, you know, Dextrose, or whatever fancy name they put on it. This EXTREME spike is what I am questioning. As mentioned, if weight(fat) is not an issue, then this may make sense for them. Many things will raise blood sugar, to a lesser extent, but just as efficient in the amount needed. And his last statement to me says it all, and am glad he agrees, the overall quality of your workouts and diet over time will in the end determine your gains. Thanks for the reply Mack. Great discussion. You make great posts.
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Failing to plan is like planning to fail!
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2003/02/19, 05:17 PM
The thanks should go to Shaolin, he brought it from this forum over to Men's Health where guys like Schuler can get ahold of it.
Alwyn Cosgrove was inclined to agree with your last post, bb1. He also thought that people had gone over the top with quantities more than anything. Cosgrove (also a MH guy) provided this in response:
Title: Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.
Researchers: Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, & Wolfe RR.
Source: American Journal of Physiology Endocrinology & Metabolism. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206.
Summary: This study was designed to determine whether drinking an essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (6gEAA+35g carbs) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise.
Methods: Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (6g EAA+35g carbs consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (6g EAA+35g carbs consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg.
Results: Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by approximately 130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise. Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater during PRE (209 +/- 42 mg) than during POST (81 +/- 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials.
Conclusion: These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.
Discussion: First let's talk about what's right with this study. Then we'll tackle what's wrong with it to keep things in perspective.
Here's what they did right. These researchers measured systemic levels of amino acids after the drink, the amount of amino acids delivered to muscle tissue, as well as the uptake of amino acids into the muscle for protein synthesis. This way they were able to follow the effects of the protein drink from the time it entered the blood stream to its eventual incorporation into muscle protein.
What they found was that systemic (amino acids in the blood stream) levels of amino acids were the same whether you took the drink before or after training. Amino acid delivery to the leg increased during exercise, and remained elevated for at least 2 hours after training. This is the result of increased blood flow to the working muscle. This increase in blood flow peaks during exercise then returns to normal over the next 2 hours.
Here is where it gets interesting. Delivery of amino acids, meaning the quantity of amino acids delivered to the muscle, was significantly greater when they gave the protein drink before training and remained significantly higher for at least an hour after the workout, compared to drinking it immediately after training. The increased delivery of amino acids from drinking the protein drink before training increased amino acid uptake into muscle by over 250%!
The superiority of taking protein before training is obvious when comparing the percentage of amino acids taken up by the leg from the protein drink. When the protein drink was taken before training, ~42% of the amino acids in the drink were taken up into the muscle. The proportion was much lower when the protein was drank after training, only about 16% of the drink was taken up into the muscle. That's over twice as much of the amino acids being taken up by muscle when it is consumed before training. It was estimated that ~86% of total uptake was incorporated into proteins whereas only ~48% of total uptake during the post workout trail was incorporated into proteins. That's a huge difference.
As for the bad, this study only used 6 grams of amino acids! I can blow my nose and produce more than 6 grams of protein. These researchers had previously (1) used higher amounts of protein (40 grams) without carbs, so in this study they wanted to see if they could elicit a similar anabolic response with less protein and more carbs. Of course, anybody who's serious about putting on muscle weight is going to need more than 6 grams of amino acids before their workout. I would suggest at least 20 grams before and another 20 grams after. Although they used only essential amino acids in this study, using a whole protein source is equally effective as long as it contains all the essential amino acids.
If you want the most muscle growth from your protein supplements, you must take one right before training, and the another right after. Although I alone have been recommending this for some time, you will surely see others making these recommendations in the near future. At least you'll know you knew about it way before the rest of the world did.
1. Tipton, KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D, Jr, and Wolfe RR. Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 276: E628-E634, 1999
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2003/02/19, 05:36 PM
I forgot to mention the above study and discussion is from Brian Haycock's site. Though it doesn't directly address the topic, it's good info.
Mike Mejia also chimed in and gave a great answer. He said that he'd had a good experience with carbs in a protein shake, but didn't get too specific:
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Great thread!
While I find all of the research very interesting, I have to agree with those who've already mentioned that it depends on the person and his or her goals.
As someone with an ectomorphic body type who is constantly trying to gain (and tolerates carbs VERY well), I can tell you that PWO shakes have made a huge difference in my training. Keep in mind, like many of you, I chart my workouts carefully- so I have a pretty good idea of whether or not something is having an appreciable effect.
Ever since I started following the PWO advice of the likes of Berardi, Incledon, Serrano and Poliquin (actually got this idea from Charles first a few years ago but didn't implement it right away) I started seeing dramatic changes in body comp. And not much of it was fat since I NEVER really go up over 10% or so anyway- even in a "bulking" phase.
I do agree with Mark though that it seems more tailored to younger bodybuilders (or "hardgainers" with Ferrarai like metabolisms ).
But, it's also like Colonel said, if you're not happy with what you're seeing it's OK to tweak the percentages to fit your needs.
Either way though, an interesting debate.
Mike
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"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
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2003/02/19, 06:01 PM
yeah, I actually had read that first post a while back with the leg. I think that this is the exact same study that AST produces on their website. Anyway, great info, and thanks for the help. As noted, I sincerely believe that all depends on your goals in the end. If weight is not an issue, then maybe go for it. Just analyze your needs before jumping on the bandwagon. Thanks again Mack and Shaolin. You guys are a great help and a great asset here.
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Failing to plan is like planning to fail!
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2004/05/24, 10:04 AM
Research goes on, and we learn and adapt. I no longer adhere to the original post of this thread, it is wrong. The window of opportunity is there, and should be followed as I have outline numerous times since with the dextrose/malto/protein combo for taking advantage of this "window". Do not neglect this time, it is supercompensation time and you are defeating much of your gans if you do not use it.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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