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2008/02/11, 10:40 PM
I'm taking an ergonomics class that is really an amazing class. A lot of it is applicable in terms of strength training, and a lot of it has been causing me to rethink a lot of things.
I figured I'd post them here for anyone that is interested, whether for feedback, discussion, or because some of it, maybe, might make sense...
One topic that tends to come up a lot is training frequency. A lot of people seem to be under the impression (wrongly, in my opinion) that you can/should train everyday, or you can do certain things everyday, or that you can train certain muscle groups everyday. The arguement usually goes like this...
"well I know a guy who knows a guy who was in the marines, and he did push ups everyday, and when he came back, he was huge"
"I read in a magazine that you can train abs everyday"
"Mechanics use their hands everyday and they have big forearms"
The last one seems to be the argument employed by an online author (and not much more) that I have long considered a tool.
Here is my argument, and I finish with my musing...
Training stress has both local, and CUMULATIVE SYSTEMIC effects. While training your legs on tuesday after training chest and biceps on monday may not hurt the recovery of your chest and biceps, it will have an overall effect on your system. Without letting your recovery capabilities catch up and glycogen along with other hormones reach optimal levels, you are accumulating fatigue throughout the whole body, and affecting your recovery levels inversely. I could write an article about this alone, along with describing one factor and dual-factor fatigue + fitness theory, but people tend to be bored by that. If your interested, read a book by zatsiorski or bompa.
Even the Bulgarians, who traing 3 times a day on monday, wednesday, and friday, and 4 times a week on tuesday, thursday, and saturday, STILL TAKE SUNDAY OFF.
If your muscles can recover in less than 24 hours, over and over again, and not fall below baseline, then you are not training enough.
And finally, my musings...
A few days ago we learned about research that has been done on strength levels in occupations requiring a high level of strength. One that stood out, related the grip strength measured by a dynamometer in employees in a factory where they were assembling pipe fittings, or something like that. They took readings from every employee. What they found was that the workers at this plant that had the highest grip strength were the supervisors, and not the regular employees.
The reasoning, the author (I believe it was Snook or Ciriello) attributed this to, was FREQUENCY.
While the regular workers were doing the tasks 5-6 times a week, the supervisors were substituting in for missing workers 1-3 times per week. Even though they were doing the same task for the same duration, etc, the supervisors who were doing it with more time in between for rest, showed much higher (statistically significantly higher) strength ratings.
I was going to apologize for this being a long post, but I don't really care. If you feel you wasted your time reading it, you should have been reading a book or something.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/11, 11:01 PM
Good Stuff!
I have noticed when I switch from a 4 day lifting (2 days legs) to a 3 day (1 day legs) lifting regime I get stronger in the 3 day with over training accruing often on the 4 day!
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Knock-Um Down & Keep-Um Down!
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2008/02/12, 05:29 AM
very good post and also something I noticed a while ago on myself. My conclusion is that we all need regular time off from all intensive training and R&R...
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2008/02/12, 06:12 AM
Nice write up. Thanks for taking the time.
How about training duration?
In my own training I tend to notice that I perform much better with shorter sessions. Sometimes only 30-40 minutes. I have seen others at my gym train for much longer but they are usually quite social and take excessivlely long rest periods, either per set or between exercises.
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2008/02/12, 03:14 PM
I can't "argue" with you on this one, but for some reason, I tend to respond best to a pretty high volume.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/02/12, 03:17 PM
I do think that what someone does the other 98% of the day that their NOT training in the gym is LARGELY what determines recovery.
From eating, to utilizing what you know with cryotherapy, to supplementation, to getting optimal sleep. Someone that does all that will be able to train much more frequently than someone who eats shit all day, sleeps 5-6 hours, and doesn't use recovery methods.
Like I said, not arguing, just thoughts.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/02/12, 03:47 PM
That's what I was looking for is thoughts. I guess the question I had was "how long does it take you to poop out in the gym?" I guess the intensiveness of the training style will dictate that. My current crappy conditioning probably prevents me from doing more volume.
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2008/02/12, 07:11 PM
Good points. These guys were "training" for very high volume and frequency, but sleep and food quality were probably not of utmost importance.
As for volume vs frequency vs intensiveness vs intensity, there will be tradeoffs. No one can train high frequency, high intensity, high volume, with intensity technique built in. However, cut one thing, and you can increase another.
As for you responding to high volume, I've read your log, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't call what you are doing "high volume".
Argue all you guys want. As long as it doesn't get out of hand, we could all stand to learn a thing or two.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/12, 07:33 PM
I don't think there was any arguing. I think Aron was implying that he didn't want to argue.
I am just asking how much time other members here are spending in the gym (per session) and do they feel that it is too little, or too much, just right?
I notice that I start to perform less than favorably if I spend more than an hour at the gym. In fact I would say that after about 45 minutes my interest in performing additional work is diminished because I start to feel that it would not be productive. In the first 45 minutes I acomplish all of the heavy main lifts and the most important accessory work.
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2008/02/12, 08:22 PM
Unless we're talking about periodization, shouldn't the focus always be on intensity and frequency? As far as I understand, intensity is usually what triggers the stimulus for strength gains, and the frequency of this stimulation is important to keep them coming and to avoid detraining. I feel energized after working out, and my total volume's almost always low.
I do agree with not being able to work out everyday; that culmative effect will eventually just burn you right out. I usually take the weekends off (sometimes just Saturday) and I'm fine.
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Quoting from wrestler125:
As for volume vs frequency vs intensiveness vs intensity, there will be tradeoffs. No one can train high frequency, high intensity, high volume, with intensity technique built in. However, cut one thing, and you can increase another.
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2008/02/12, 08:27 PM
I can't really lift heavy things after 45 minutes. I'm fine getting in accessory stuff though. Workouts usually take between 60 and 75 minutes.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/12, 08:41 PM
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Quoting from Tinnuk:
Unless we're talking about periodization, shouldn't the focus always be on intensity and frequency?
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Why? And why would we talk about frequency vs intensity vs... and not be referring to some form of periodization.
Intensity isn't the only way to trigger strength. Most eastern strength programs do most of the work between 65 and 85%. Westside waves their speed work from 45-75% depending on the individual and lift. One of the strongest guys at our gym (planning on US Junior squat record of 720 at 210lbs, 220lb weight class) does ridiculously high volume and high density.
Strength training is rarely about focusing all your effort in one direction.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/12, 08:48 PM
In the context of training, what is density again?
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2008/02/12, 08:50 PM
He does a lot of volume in a very little time. He probably takes 60 second breaks between everything, if that, and gets in about 8 exercises and a lot of sets in under an hour.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/02/12, 10:15 PM
Haha yea Stevo's definitely right about my log. I haven't been using high volume lately, but have been trying to get myself in balance, etc. I was just saying that in my experience, the type of training I've responded best was in the higher volume category. The program was 6 days a week pretty intense lifting. When I ate perfectly, etc, and let myself recover, I could handle it for 3-4 weeks and make progress, then take a very light week. It was a very good cycle for me. I can't wait to do it again.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/02/13, 12:00 AM
my workouts tend to take at least an hour and half. but we have 3 guys rotating work. depending on how intense our ME lifts are, we might back off on our accessory, but we typically always drive each other to go strong to the end.
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