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2008/03/03, 02:14 PM
I was thinking of using exrx.net to teach myself how to do a proper power clean; though it doesn't seem overly complicated, I opted out of that on the basis that screwing that up could prove, well, bad.
I notice that before elbow flexion occurs, the lift is basically just an explosive deadlift with a little jump.
Is there any reason at all that I couldn't do DE leg days just doing the deadlift explosively, or should I really just learn the powerclean? I ask this because I've never actually heard of the deadlift being trained that way, and maybe I'm overlooking something.
Maybe my arm placement was flawed, but when I actually practiced the powerclean, I found that after the clean itself, I felt like I would be pulled forward if using any significant weight (I practiced with the bar alone).
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2008/03/03, 02:22 PM
Biggest difference is that you want your shoulders in front of the bar when you clean and behind the bar when you deadlift and that is a BIG difference.
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2008/03/03, 09:29 PM
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Quoting from Tinnuk:
I notice that before elbow flexion occurs, the lift is basically just an explosive deadlift with a little jump.
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Not even close to correct. I'd recommend finding an oly coach if you really care. You'll notice that every oly lifter you talk to will say the same thing.
And lots of people do DE Deadlifts. I can't put any weight on my back in the full dl position (bulging disk) and have been using them instead at 50-65% to work on form and getting my back strength back.
Read PEMDAS's log as well, he uses speed pulls on most of his DE days after DE Squats
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/03/04, 06:11 PM
Sorry to hear about your back; anything permanent about disk herniation?
Well the powerclean at least appeared to be that way from a purely visual perspective, but anyways...
Olympic coaches seem hard to come by, and I'm assuming that any training from one wouldn't exactly be cheap, though it's probably worth it in the long run.
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2008/03/04, 07:57 PM
Nothing to be sorry about. I've found a way to still pick things off the ground and work around it. And it's not a full herniation, so it will go away eventually, provided I train right.
The powerclean will look that way because either it wasn't performed properly, or you weren't watching carefully. It's tough to see the intricacies of such an explosive lift, but it is HIGHLY technical.
As for prices, if you find an oly club they normally run about the same as any other gym. There are some good books written on olympic lifting technique, but a book can't watch you lift. If you just want to do it to get more explosive, you should at least have someone around you that mostly knows what they are doing.
I would normally say you could substitute the speed pull for the clean, but the problem I have with that is that I know you do a lot of jumping and would probably want to increase this ability. While I think deadlifting can bring up the potential for this, the acceleration occurs at the wrong time, and the bar speed is lowest at the time when it matters most. With any olympic lift, the most force is exerted during the second pull, which very closely mimics a jumping movement.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/03/04, 08:09 PM
I love dynamic DL's using a trap bar, and if u want do it off a box. I would think this would be a pretty good mimicry of jumping and would help build starting power if you use a 4" box or so
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/03/04, 10:11 PM
Why would the trap bar be more similar to jumping than a regular bar? If anything, it would be less since there is less of a posterior chain component.
Regardless, the force production curve for a deadlift, trap bar or otherwise, is nothing like a jump.
I was having a similar conversation with a close friend of mine that is an olympic lifter, who I've seen jump onto a 50" box without doing any jump training, and despite his poor deadlift. He ventured the guess that for someone that didn't have the option of learning the classic lifts, jump shrugs would be superior to a deadlift. I think I agree.
I'm not knocking deadlifts in any way... I just think they are far from optimal as far as a substitution for olympic lifts, IN THIS REGARD.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2008/03/05, 01:53 PM
When you say they run about as much as normal gyms, are you referring to monthly gym fees, or the cost of personal training. Considering the specific attention and instruction that I'd likely need, it sounds more like personal training. As you likely know well, this could mean the difference between <$100 and >$500.
I've received personal training before, learning partway into it that I probably knew what I was talking about more than she did, and eventually regretting the whole thing. As such, I've become very untrusting of them; personal trainers are a shifty bunch.
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2008/03/05, 03:24 PM
I just thought the trap bar DL would be good because it takes some stress off the low back/spine. Personally, I have always loved doing dynamic work with it. And doing them off the box would help activate the hamstrings more.
There's not many lifts in the gym that really "mimic" jump in sports activity, but I like doing dynamic work with these from a 3 second pause at the bottom to help neurally prepare for explosion off a dead start. For me, the trap bar deadlift has been good for the starting acceleration phase of a jump. A lot of exercises are good for this when used dynamically, like box squats, RDL's, etc.
But I will agree that Olympic high pulls are even better for this, and the best success I have ever had BY FAR has come when these were a part of my routine, but that doesn't mean you have to choose one or the other ALL the time.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2008/03/05, 05:12 PM
If you find an oly club, just train when they train, and everyone watches each other.
Besides that, there is a HUGE difference between PT and USAW.
Aaron,
I'm not saying that they are a bad exercise, only that they are a poor substitute for a clean. Like I said before, I do them regularly, and probably would do them even if I wasn't in a rehab phase (which is turning out to be way too long). They will definitely help you get stronger, and I am hard pressed to find times when getting stronger won't help athletic performance.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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