|
2008/03/04, 10:26 PM
TOO MUCH CARDIO AND LONG WORKOUTS MAKE YOU FAT
MARCH 4, 2007 10:04 AM
One of many paradoxes about human fitness and body composition is that too much exercise makes you fat. How can this be since exercise burns energy? Well, because in the long run a lot of low intensity exercise does not burn energy and it redirects energy flow to fat. Human metabolism is highly adaptive; if you burn more fat, the body will resupply more of it.
Why doesn't a lot of low intensity exercise burn off fat? It is easy to see in the gym that it doesn't. What are all the fat people doing in the gym? Walking on treadmills and cycling endlessly and at a very low level of intensity. The evidence is there for anyone to see. The same point is true of bicyclists and joggers; they have a high fat content (fat, skinny joggers). The point is equally true of guys who work out endlessly, doing multiple sets of high reps. Nearly everyone in the gym is too fat, not just in the real world outside, it is everywhere.
I made this point long ago in an interview with a performance publication; too much cardio makes you fat. Now just the other day I saw the point on a sign in Gold's. So I asked one of the trainers, who had no real explanation for it. Few likely do know how or why this happens and are less likely to see the same problem with body builders.
The basic reason is...
that too much cardio or body building increases stress hormones and down regulates hormones, like GH and testosterone, that preserve muscle. In addition, elevated stress hormones make you insulin resistant and leads to over eating as well as eating the wrong things that cater to insulin resistance, meaning simpler carbs. Runners and bikers are taught to live on carbs and the path from excessive cardio to insulin resistance to poor body composition to frank diabetes is one that has been trodden by many an endurance athlete. It is one that keeps obese individuals from losing fat when they begin training in a gym and really dooms them. The success rate for the obese in the gym is poor.
Body builder types have similar problems, but I find that more of them are fat than they ought to be. Then again, they do too much volume (stress response) and eat really poorly. Protein powders, gainer drinks, carbs, carbs, and carbs to get big. To get fat really.
The excess volume is similar in its effects to running excessively. Both convert expensive fast twitch muscles into slower and less energetically expensive intermediate and slow twitch fibers. Both diminish muscle mass and this means your basal metabolism falls. Thus, you burn less energy.
This is one of the standard problems with first order thinking. If you focus on burning fat (cardio) you do burn fat. But, you set off all sorts of second and third order effects that alter the result. In the end, you lower your total energy expenditure by lowering lean muscle mass and reducing hormone drives and muscle fibers that burn energy. To reach a new metabolic equilibrium you have to eat more fat or convert intake into fat. This is fine, but if you also lower total energy expenditure and alter hormones in the process, the end result will be an altered body composition; more fat, less muscle.
|
|
|
|
2008/03/04, 10:27 PM
http://www.arthurdevany.com/2007/03/too_much_cardio.html
^^That's where I found it.
|
|
2008/03/04, 10:33 PM
When I first read the title I thought, well this is why over 50% of people are overweight.. because of garbage like this. But then I saw he's actually got some science in there. (I don't know if it's accurate or not though). I can't see it actually being true though.. it just doesn't make sense to me.
|
|
2008/03/04, 11:10 PM
Without actually reading past the title, I agree.
And have agreed, for a long time...
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/04, 11:31 PM
I should probably clarify my point before people start nit-picking...
I'm not a fan of steady state cardio. I think there are so many better alternatives for weight loss, conditioning, etc. I think it is far from optimal.
I DON'T think it's "bad". However, when done in excess, I can see it being detrimental. In fact, various studies have shown this...
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/05, 07:53 AM
Alwyn Cosgrove brings up this point in his book "Extreme Fat Loss Training"
I do see better results with people by cutting their workouts down and having them do mostly HIIT for cardio.
--------------
Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they\'re yours.
Richard Bach
|
|
2008/03/05, 09:50 AM
So is it just low intensity cardio, or all of it? What doesn't make sense to me is that if you look at all marathon runners, or serious triathletes, they are all very lean. You don't see many morbidly obese people crossing the finish line in marathons.
I understand the bodybuilder part. Obviously if you eat to gain and don't workout hard enough to build muscle, you're going to get fat. I just don't understand how cardio would do it.
|
|
2008/03/05, 12:00 PM
As far as marathon runners, etc, you have your cause and effect mixed up...
Successful marathon runners are moving their bodies thousands and thousands of steps at a high rate. Naturally, any extra fat on their body won't help them accomplish this, so the more fat they carry, the more inefficient they become. It stands to reason, then, that the marathon runners you are exposed to, usually the top pack runners, are all very lean.
I did a half marathon in high school, and I can tell you, most of the runners were not as lean as you would expect.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/05, 09:31 PM
Okay.. so what about the part where it states that the success rate for the obese in the gym is poor? What are you supposed to do when you are overweight besides low intensity cardio/weights? Obviously when you're just beginning you won't be able to do sprints or bodybuilding type lifting.
I'm not disagreeing with either one of you, I know nothing about the science behind it, and I know both of you do. I guess I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of exercise making you even more overweight than you already are.
|
|
2008/03/06, 12:19 AM
That would depend on a lot of things.
For example purposes, I'll use the common theme of a middle aged overweight female that only has an hour a day tops.
After doing a full analysis of the individual, and planning to correct those issues, I would start out with a total body lifting program combining relatively short rest periods (females tolerate short rest periods better, so short might be 20s for a female but 30-40s for a male) that would be comprised mostly of various machines mixed with some freeweight stuff. This would take about 30 minutes. I'd probably have them follow this with 20 minutes of steady state cardio, and then use the remaining 10 minutes to address anything I feel needs addressing.
I know this probably isn't what you thought, but here's the reasoning... the lifting is what causes most of the fat loss. Everything done at a fast pace will burn more fat than any steady state cardio. However, it is followed with steady state cardio because after the fat is metabolized, it needs to be cleared out of the system. It's already been broken down, now it's time to utilize it. There is a great deal of science supporting the benefit of steady state after intervals, lifting, or complexes.
The cardio is also done just to bring up basic conditioning. I'd use different thing each day, I like things like stair stepping and swimming. For more advanced individuals, this might be complexes, tabata, high rep work, or even a strongman event trained for endurance.
I've never liked running, and have seriously started to dislike it (especially for women, due to the higher Q angle) since I started getting into therapy and biomechanics.
I dislike excessive cardio, and cardio done as the main form of exercise. That doesn't mean I wouldn't utilize it as a tool.
I breezed over a bunch of topics for the sake of laziness, so ask questions.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/06, 06:57 AM
Let me give an example from my own life...
I used to live in the city, and I used a bike to get around (an MTB). I'm pretty short, but did my best to keep up a high speed, passing most of the everyday bikers that did the sam as me... getting to and from work, shopping etc.
In the beginning, riding my bike gave me plenty of exercise, and I could feel myself getting stronger, faster, and better conditioned. After a while though, I felt I wasn't getting any better, I just kept my heart healthy and my legs strong, but that was it. It didn't feel as if I got any exercise from it.
Then I moved to a different town, much smaller. The time I spent on the bike decreased, my weight got up (due to other things as well... and it started before I moved), and I felt as if biking was a waste of time except for getting from A to B. I then got a bike to use in the city as well, to get from the train to my work and back, making the time I spent on a bike each day doubled. I doubled my daily bike exercise, and I didn't start loosing any weight. My work was the same, my eating the same, and I thought I would loose some weight by adding the extra bike rides, but no... it didn't work at all.
The body adapts, and the body is lazy. If you do the same thing too long, it will use less energy for the task. That is why you should change the workout routine about every 8 weeks or so.
BTW... i'm not an expert, I just know how my own body reacts.
--------------
-----------------------------------
Getting there... one kg at a time...
-----------------------------------
|
|
2008/03/06, 08:54 AM
This is a good thread. Thanks.
|
|
2008/03/06, 09:54 AM
Steve-
So would what you described be an ideal workout? I was always told that you shouldn't do cardio and weights on the same day. What you said about getting rid of the fat after it was metabolized makes a lot of sense though.. I never actually thought about that.
Also, I always thought that cardio was what you were supposed to use to lose fat, and lifting was used to gain muscle. Is this true, and why don't you like cardio? What about doing things like quick weight lifting in circuits used as cardio? (Something along the lines of a crossfit workout) Would this have a higher success rate?
One more question haha. What is the Q angle and why does it make it a bad idea for women to run?
|
|
2008/03/06, 09:56 AM
ReptilianFeline-
You also brought up a good point that I didn't think of. I guess that if all you did at the gym was steady state cardio, your body would adapt, causing you to start gaining weight again. I guess I didn't realize that there might be some people who didn't know that and would consequently gain weight from exercising. Thanks for bringing it up!
|
|
2008/03/06, 11:14 AM
After reading the book "The New Rules of Lifting," the fat loss programs are exactly as Steve decribes. Alwyn Cosgrove utilizes 3 different programs incorporating fast paced workouts utilizing the whole body with minimal rest times between sets.
The idea behind this is that your body will quickly start to produce the hormone, cortisol, in reaction to stress and that will start the metabolism of fat. The weight training session is commonly followed by his "Afterburn" cardio program which I assume in the state of depleted muscle glycogen the body will utilize the fat for fuel. (need Steve to clarify)
Cortisol will also cause the breakdown of muscle tissue but this can be remedied with proper post workout nutrition.
Result: your body becomes a fat burning machine.
By cycling through the 3 programs and increasing the intensity of the "Afterburn" program you deny your body the ability to adapt to the stress.
|
|
2008/03/06, 11:25 AM
Correction: I think its blood glycogen rather than muscle glycogen. The body uses glycogen stores from muscle tissue and the liver. (again, needs clarification)
|
|
2008/03/06, 11:55 AM
Thanks merrillj!
I'll definitely have to look into getting that book. It's always nice to learn this stuff. :)
|
|
2008/03/06, 12:32 PM
============
Quoting from yessicarathsak:
Steve-
So would what you described be an ideal workout?
=============
ughhhhhauahgugh.... god I hate that term.
There is no ideal workout. However, it is a typical scenario. Many clients don't have the option of coming in twice in one day, or everyday. In addition, you (ie the typical client) are much more likely to burn out training 6+ days a week due to boredom.
For the scenario I described, which is a very vague scenario that glosses over a lot of things, I think it would work well. What I think is good for an obese women is not necessarily what I think is ideal for you. My answer will change entirely based on the context.
My reasoning for weights+cardio is this...
I've always been one of the people on this site that said to separate cardio and weight training. I wouldn't necessarily mean separate days, in fact, I'd rather have someone do 2 workouts one day and have the next completely off... Also, I'd hardly consider 20 minutes on an elliptical to be a heavy dose of cardio. It is more for "clean up" than anything.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/06, 12:38 PM
============
Quoting from yessicarathsak:
Steve-
Also, I always thought that cardio was what you were supposed to use to lose fat, and lifting was used to gain muscle. Is this true, and why don't you like cardio? What about doing things like quick weight lifting in circuits used as cardio? (Something along the lines of a crossfit workout) Would this have a higher success rate?
=============
Lifting weights results in a higher excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) than steady state cardio, which is what ends up burning fat.
Also, I don't dislike cardio. I dislike excessive steady state cardio. Cardio can be anything from sprinting to flipping a tire for 10 minutes. Most people need to think outside the box as far as this is concerned. And like I said, I still utilize it in programming, and think it is a tool.
============
Quoting from yessicarathsak:
One more question haha. What is the Q angle and why does it make it a bad idea for women to run?
=============
I did a google search to find a more "simple" explanation than the one I would give, and found this by Micheal Boyle, a brilliant man who I hope to intern with next summer:
http://www.michaelboyle.biz/joomla/content/view/98/34/
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/06, 12:43 PM
============
Quoting from merrillj:
After reading the book "The New Rules of Lifting," the fat loss programs are exactly as Steve decribes. Alwyn Cosgrove utilizes 3 different programs incorporating fast paced workouts utilizing the whole body with minimal rest times between sets.
=============
I don't know whether to be flattered or sue for copyright infringement...
On a serious note, I read that book a while ago (but skipped the programs because I'd rather write my own) and would recommend it for most beginners just starting to learn about exercise. There wasn't anything new in it, and I didn't learn anything I hadn't already heard, but the explanations were some of the best I have ever read (and anyone that reads my responses knows I'm not great at explaining certain things).
I also believe Schuler is coming out with a "New Rules of Lifting for Females", which I suspect to be much like the first.
One a side note, a program similar to what I described is not uncommon. In fact, it is fairly popular among good trainers because IT WORKS.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/06, 12:46 PM
Not to be a post whore, but I just noticed you mentioned circuits and crossfit.
I wouldn't jump into circuits because with a beginner, I would be more concerned with proper execution of the exercises. As we progressed though, I like an alternating set system (ex. one set for chest alternated with one set for back with short rest periods).
As for crossfit, I think it would have a very low success rate in this particular scenario. Try getting an obese woman to do overhead squats alternated with overspeed sprinting and see if she comes back...
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/06, 01:30 PM
"ughhhhhauahgugh.... god I hate that term."
^^ SORRY!! I didn't mean ideal as in perfect, I just meant as in better than alternating days between lifting and cardio.
So would you recommend something like a total body weight lifting program followed by maybe 30-45 mins of a HIIT cardio workout done every other day for somebody like me?
Also, I never knew that body structure had a lot to do with running. Thanks for the info!
|
|
2008/03/07, 01:42 PM
Also, what would wide hips be considered as? Is there a certain measurement, or would it just depend on the specific body?
On a side note, good luck with getting your internship Steve!
|
|
2008/03/07, 02:11 PM
It always depends on the body if a chick is like 6'4 and has 38 inch hips that may be small but if she was 5'1 theyd be big...proportion is what i say lol proportion proportion proportion
|
|
2008/03/07, 03:20 PM
Body structure has a lot to do with everything.
Q angle is the angle the quadriceps form with a line perpendicular to the ground. The angle, properly measured, should be less than 25 degrees for women and 20 for males.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/07, 03:31 PM
yessica. also people prefer different things some chicks love their wide hips so do some guys its all perference.
|
|
2008/03/07, 03:39 PM
Do you realize this is an injury thread?
============
Quoting from corless319:
yessica. also people prefer different things some chicks love their wide hips so do some guys its all perference.
=============
|
|
2008/03/07, 03:41 PM
My mistake, not an injury thread, but try and keep it on topic.
============
Quoting from KA:
Do you realize this is an injury thread?
=============
|
|
2008/03/07, 03:57 PM
ka since shes the author of the thread does it really matter? I don't know I'm still knew to this stuff.
|
|
2008/03/07, 04:47 PM
I don't have a problem with my hips at all. The only reason I had asked was because in the article that was posted above stated that girls with wider hips were more prone to injury when they ran. I was just trying to figure out if I fell into that category or not.
============
Quoting from corless319:
yessica. also people prefer different things some chicks love their wide hips so do some guys its all perference.
=============
|
|
2008/03/07, 04:55 PM
Well I have no idea where there would be a standard for hip size. I bet you could ask your dr the next time you go in. They may have that information available to you.
|
|
2008/03/07, 06:07 PM
I already posted the answer to her question. If she is really concerned, there is software that we use to determine stuff like this based on a picture, and people that are better than me can give you an approximation visually.
There are standards for almost everything as far as the body is concerned. One of my classes involved a 3 week project that involved classifying and analyzing a variety of anthropometric measurements of over 10,000 soldiers from the ANSUR database.
These numbers aren't necessarily for aesthetic interpretation, but rather to help diagnose various physical problems. If you go into a physical therapist, from the time you walk in they are assessing you based on your physical appearance. From the way you walk to the way you stand. All of it means something.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/07, 06:27 PM
Thank you Steve.
|
|
2008/03/09, 04:23 PM
I just thought of the term for when fat is metabolized into the bloodstream. It is called lipemia, and this may be of some interest to some of you here.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/09, 04:39 PM
============
Quoting from wrestler125:
I just thought of the term for when fat is metabolized into the bloodstream. It is called lipemia, and this may be of some interest to some of you here.
=============
Are you sure? If I remember my med. terms right, wouldn't lipemia translate into something like a lot of fat cells in the blood stream?
Is it maybe lipolysis instead? I think lipolysis is the break down of fat, and I'm pretty sure it happens in the bloodstream. I could be way off though, I took the class last year.
|
|
2008/03/09, 05:00 PM
Lipolysis is the breakdown of fat stored in fat cells. while this happens, free fatty acids are released into the bloodstream and circulate throughout the body.
--------------
Patience, persistence and perspiration make an unbeatable combination for success.
Ivan
Montreal Canada (City of Festivals)
|
|
2008/03/09, 05:29 PM
Oh, okay. Like I said, it's been awhile since I took the class, and Steve's term just didn't sound right to me b/c I thought it was just a condition of too many fat cells in the bloodstream which could lead to a heart attack or something like that.
Thanks for straightening me out though, carivan!
|
|
2008/03/09, 06:53 PM
Lipolysis results in lipemia. Lipemia is the state of having FFA's in the bloodstream.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/09, 07:15 PM
Alright, so at least I was close then haha.
|
|
2008/03/09, 07:54 PM
You were right. The way I put it wasn't proper english. I implied that lipemia was a process.
--------------
SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
|
|
2008/03/10, 10:04 PM
That was my question, it signed me out for some reason.
|
|
2008/03/11, 03:14 PM
That's actually a really good question. I would think that either way you should switch it up after about a month or so, but I'm really not sure. I usually switch it up anyways after about that long so I don't get bored with it.
|
|
2008/03/11, 09:01 PM
The only thing I could think of as a good answer would be "Jack of all trades master of none" I think if you did many different exercises only repeating them maybe once of twice a week, your body would never be able to adjust to get used to it. No matter how adaptive it is. Oiy this makes my brain hurt just thinking about what I should do now. lol
|
|
2008/03/12, 08:02 AM
I have wide hips, and short legs, and big boobs, and I hate to run, but I can walk for hours. I'm not built for running, but I can run if I have to, but I prefer other types of cardio.
I rest very little between sets, keeping my heart rate up - that is one type of cardio.
Squats and especially lunges are great as cardio as well - I did smith mashine lunges for the first time last week, and got pretty winded.
Some rowing weight exercises are cardio in their nature as well.
When I follow the program here it gives a set number of things to do each week, and some things are the same for a couple of weeks in a row, and other things vary. That way you work out more muscles over time, and don't get bored. If I do the same things every week, my progress stops to be felt after about 6 weeks. After that all seems like routine even if I use more weight.
--------------
-----------------------------------
Getting there... one kg at a time...
-----------------------------------
|
|
2008/03/12, 05:42 PM
What happened to the posts by wrestler?
|
