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Am i training too hard?

ianakers Posts: 127 Joined: 2005/02/06	2005/07/06, 10:23 AM when we do bench at school i always do as much as i can for that amount of reps and i many times i cant quite get the last rep. would this have anything to do with me not getting stronger? it has been a couple months since it has increased. i always thought that is what you were supposed to do but maybe not
mikencharleston Posts: 1,585 Joined: 2002/01/09	2005/07/06, 11:37 AM When you do the same thing all the time your body adjusts to the stress you're giving it. Read up on muscle shocking methods and you can see some gains. A few are rest/pause, pyramids, ascending/descending sets. When it gets down to it though your body is going to have a limit but since you are 15, I doubt you've hit it yet.
ianakers Posts: 127 Joined: 2005/02/06	2005/07/06, 12:08 PM well we usually do a different number of sets/reps every time
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2005/07/06, 12:18 PM ok, but your training to failure. if ive heard it once, ill hear it again... "Training to failure is training to fail." In answer to your question, yes. Good job listening to your body. You've learned a skill that eludes many lifters for years to come. -------------- The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
ianakers Posts: 127 Joined: 2005/02/06	2005/07/06, 01:00 PM we bench twice a week so should i kinda take it easy one of the days? which one monday or thursday?
	2005/07/06, 05:28 PM Don't know I max out on almost every working set that I train....for pretty much any body part and have gotten good gains over the years...I think this is a good way to become stronger....perhaps not the best way to gain muscle...but that's another issue.... training to failure has nothing to do with your plateaus...instead...switch up the exercises, or the order of exercises, do supersets, use pre-exhaustion methods, change up the volume or the reps, use different grip, try rest/pause technique(picking as many points during a rep as you want and pausing the weight for 1-2 seconds), isometric training, there are literally a million ways to shock your muscles into growth.... also keep in mind if you max out on more sets then cut te volume.... try doing max effort day on one of the days, and speed(dynamic) day on the other......you'll max out on one, and on another you'll do volume training with light weight for speed......works very well....
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2005/07/06, 09:16 PM yes, but how how often do you guys go do reps over 5. I max out twice per workout usually, a 3rm and a 1rm. but theres a difference between maxing out and training to failure. If hes doing as many reps as possible with each weight on each set, then he's probably overtraining. -------------- The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
	2005/07/07, 02:53 AM I don't understand you point.... training to failure means going for however many reps until you can't do another rep using X weight....I go to failure to 20+ reps at times...benching 225 for example...other times I go to failure for 1 rep on my squats or deadlifts...in both instances I go to failure....the rep range has nothing to do with it.... in fact maxing out at 3 and 5 rep ranges taxes the body much more than doing maxes at 20+ reps....however both forms are training to failure....
	2005/07/07, 06:39 AM what you aim for is just a goal....your actual muscle fatigue is reached at 5 reps....that is all..what you do after that is not the point because the spotter is lifting %...so at that point your 'max' for 5 reps is no longer X but Y...
DX14AG Posts: 1,055 Joined: 2004/07/22	2005/07/07, 08:52 AM ok now I'm confused. Negatives are a good way to get over a plateau right? I do negatives on biceps and chest mainly. It seems to work for me. DX
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2005/07/07, 02:08 PM some people can do that type of training. I cant. menace and man of steel may be able to. However, learn to listen to your body. Know when too much is too much. I see great results without that type of training, although periodically, I do need to up the intensity. Everyone is different, and if something is not working for you, and you think you may be overtraining, than you probably are.
ianakers Posts: 127 Joined: 2005/02/06	2005/07/07, 10:25 PM so should i do as much as possible for each set or not?
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/07, 10:50 PM Overtraining has several identifiers: 1. Loss of motivation to train(especially if you're highly motivated to begin with) 2.Increased resting heart rate 3. Increased resting blood pressure 4. Decreased maximal power output 5. Decreased sports performance 6. Decreased maximal blood lactate concentrations 7. Slower recovery after exercise 8. Weight loss (LBM goes down and BF goes up) 9. Decreased appetite 10. Increased irritability and depression 11. Increased incidence of injury 12. Increased incidence of infection (primarily upper respiratory) #1 is the 1st big one you should pay attention to. If you train to failure all of the time then you are training yourself to fail. Your body operates on a rythem that flucuates daily. Some days are better than others. On the days you feel great then push your limits. On days you don't feel great then do what you need to do to feel good about the training session.
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/07, 10:51 PM Here is some literature on the topic: OVERREACHING AND OVERTRAINING Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D. “Cumulative Microtrauma is the common link in all forms of overreaching/overtraining.” “In order to perform optimally, athletes must be adequately trained. However, if athletes train too intensely and/or too often, they may be susceptible to short-term and/or long-term decrements in performance capacity as well as myriad reported physiological, medical, and/or psychological symptoms of overreaching and overtraining. While the etiology of overreaching and overtraining is completely understood, understanding the theorized pathophysiology, physiological and psychological markers, and possible ways to reduce the incidence of overreaching and overtraining may serve to decrease the prevalence of overreaching and/or overtraining in athletes.”This preamble appeared in the flier announcing the International Conference on Overreaching & Overtraining in Sport: Physiological, Psychological & Biomedical Considerations, held July 14-17 in Memphis. All I can say is, Mamma mia! Scientists -- those intrepid sleuths of Academia -- have a neat way of pontificating, don’t they? I went to this conference, and learned a thing or two, so they do know some real neat stuff!If we can accept the tenets of the quote above, then we can infer that both overtraining and overreaching are caused by stress. Lots of different stressors out there folks! Also, the various symptoms of overreaching and overtraining ("markers") are equally multitudinous. Too many questions!· What stressors?· What markers?· And, just how "prevalent" are overtraining and overreaching anyway? Enough to cause alarm?· And, wouldn’t "decreasing the prevalence" be a simple matter of eliminating or (perhaps more appropriately) reducing the stressors in one’s life?· To what degree? If you reduce the stress too much, won’t you "undertrain?"These questions may seem to you to be bordering on the trite, but I assure you they are not. They are the essence of training science as we know it! How much stress, what kind of stress and how often to stress, they are the questions for which all of us seek answers every day of our existence!So let’s look for answers systematically (there are some, you know!). First, let’s talk about stress. Then about how it causes overreaching and overtraining, and what to look for as markers. Finally, how can we control it.Interrelated Stressors:Every day of our lives we are all bombarded with a variety of stressors. More often than not, these stressors are of low enough "intensity" or so subtle that they don’t affect us negatively in the short term. But most take their toll over time, you can book that! What’s worse, of those that do have a more immediate negative effect, their intensity is often compounded by the mere presence of the many other stressors. For example, any number of environmental stressors can have physical or physiological consequences. And one’s psychological state is inextricably intertwined with one’s biochemistry.Consider some of the more common stressors, with an eye toward how they interact to aid or hinder our training efforts, and especially how they can affect overreaching and overtraining (defined below).Environmental Stressors Stemming From:· Excessive Heat Or Cold· Excessively High Or Low Humidity· Excessive Altitude (Above Or Below Sea Level)· Challenging Terrain· Ultraviolet Irradiation· Environmental Pollution· Poorly Designed Clothing· Poorly Designed Equipment· Airborne Pollen And Other Allergens· Poor Training FacilitiesPsychological / Sociological Stressors Stemming From:· Job, Problems· Depression· Mental Illness· Neurological Disorders· Pain· Aging· Anger· Fear Or Anxiety· Problems With Academic Studies· Shaky Financial Status· Family Problems· Sex Problems· Personality Conflicts· Schedule Conflicts· Boredom· Lack Of Encouragement· Psyching Up Too Frequently· Pressure To Perform· Lack Of Adequate CoachingPhysiological / Biochemical Stressors Stemming From:· Environmental Stress· Psychological Stress· Anatomical / Structural Stress· Aging· Disease· Myriad Genetic Factors· Sleep Disorders· Poor Nutritional Status· The Use, Misuse And Abuse Of Prescription Or Recreational Drugs· The Use, Misuse Or Abuse Of Herbs (Phytochemicals) And Nutritional SupplementsAnatomical /Structural Stressors Stemming From:· Surgically Altered Tissue Structure· Injury-Induced Alterations In Tissue Structure· Environmental Stress· Physical Defects· Poor Genetics· Aging· Overuse Stress· Poor Exercise Technique· Ill-Conceived Training Program· Exertional Stress (Especially Eccentric Muscle Actions)· Too Much Training Volume· Too Much Training Intensity· Too Much Training Duration· Too Much Training FrequencyAs a general rule-of-thumb, you want to eliminate or (if you can’t eliminate it, minimize the ill effects of) all stressors except the last five. These, you want! But ONLY if you can CONTROL them.Now, we’re getting somewhere! There are at least seven Laws of training we all must obey if we want our training efforts to pay maximum dividends, and I’ve spoken of them in several recent issues of Muscle & Fitness. The one overriding Law of all forms of training in regards to controlling stress to make it work FOR you instead of against you is called the GAS Law.General Adaptation Syndrome ("GAS"):The GAS is comprised of three stages according to its originator, Dr. Hans Seyle:1. The "alarm stage" caused by the application of intense training stress,2. The "resistance stage" when our muscles adapt in order to resist the stressful weights more efficiently, and3. The "exhaustion stage" where, if we persist in applying stress, we do not recover or adapt. Easily inferred is the notion that you must rest between severe bouts of weight training to allow both recovery and supercompensation to occur. In the short run (days or weeks), failing to do so causes an "overreaching" syndrome, and, in the long run (months), an "overtraining" syndrome.It is these two syndromes that interest me. What are the markers of each, are they actually different form one another, and how can we avoid or reduce them without actually "undertraining" in the process? These questions are of critical importance to you in successfully achieving your maximum ability in sports, fitness or bodybuilding. First, let’s take a look at the working definitions of the terms "overtraining" and "overreaching" that the scientists used at the Memphis conference.Overreaching: An accumulation of training and/or non-training stress resulting in a short-term decrement in performance capacity with or without related physiological and psychological signs and symptoms of overtraining in which restoration of performance capacity may take from several days to several weeks.Overtraining: An accumulation of training and/or non-training stress resulting in a long-term decrement in performance capacity with or without related physiological and psychological signs and symptoms of overtraining in which restoration of performance capacity may take from several weeks to several months.Well! Circumloquitousness is not one of the attributes the conference organizers were lacking in, that’s for sure! The definitions they used, in case you didn’t see it, are identical except for the time factors involved. Both are induced by training stress.Not to worry! While, at first blush, the term "overreaching" conjures images of training-related trauma that causes tissue damage, in actuality that only happens to bodybuilders if they lift too much weight or do too many reps or sets. So, assuming that you don’t go that far (few bodybuilders do on any consistent basis, primarily because fatigue intervenes), the low-level overreaching that bodybuilders typically do may be regarded as just another term for "adaptive overload." It is what is needed to force an adaptive response to be initiated in your body. But, once you have overreached, you must pay attention to the GAS Law! Continued overreaching -- indiscriminate and continued overload over time -- eventually leads to the far more serious syndrome, overtraining. It looks like this:Program Design Errors in Overtraining:There was consensus among most of the lecturers at the conference that training protocol errors are by far the most common factor in overtraining. While there is no question that the ill effects of too much training stress is easily exacerbated by the presence of concomitant stressors (menioned above), all we can do is attempt to minimize the others and control the training stressors.Factors such as excessive training volume and training intensity, over time, can accumulate to produce decrements in strength, speed, explosiveness, endurance and skilled (motor) performance. So too can consistently poor nutritional status, lack of rest, choice of exercises, order of exercises, or lack of variation in exercise.But, by the time you’ve observed such symptoms, it’s too late. Consider these common examples. Is it better to treat obesity (the marker being excess storage of adipose tissue) or avoid it in the first place? Is it better to take your car in for periodic checkups or fix it after it’s broken down (whereupon the marker becomes whatever it was that broke)? No, fellow iron freaks, the best approach lies in avoiding the appearance of such markers in the first place.The markers of such performance decrements may vary among the following (to name a few):· Altered Endocrine Profiles,· Increased Catecholamine Output,· Psychological Profile Changes· Cardiovascular Manifestations (hematological alterations, iron status, protein status, and fluid and electrolyte balance)· Plasma Concentration Reduction Of Pituitary Hormones,· Changes In Pituitary/Hormonal Secretion Patterns,· Changes In Endocrine Profiles On Muscle Metabolism,· Changes In Serum Amino Acid Concentrations And Its Effects On Serotonin Synthesis,· Musculoskeletal/Orthopedic Problems (cellular aspects of overtraining with emphasis on muscle, bone, and connective tissues)· Immune Suppression And Accompanying Illness Rates (natural killer cell activity, neutrophil function, lymphocyte proliferative response, and other measures of immunity),· Appetite Suppression.These were among the markers of overtraining that were presented in the Memphis symposia. Clearly, each has its own set of stressful sub-problems (and therefore sub-markers) which may have potentially devastating effects on performance. These effects may manifest themselves over time or more immediately. But the main point is that, with few exceptions, these markers cannot be easily or readily identified by us -- we who train regularly. Muscular or joint pain, appetite changes, psychological changes and decreased strength, speed and explosiveness are quite noticeable, however, and these markers are the main ones we’ve relied upon over the past few years to determine our own training status. The others, well, we’ve left them to the A-Team sleuths.The Most Interesting Tidbits From The Memphis Conference:Peter Snell, Ph.D. (UT Southwestern Medical School):Dr. Snell spoke about long, moderate intensity running being well tolerated and beneficial beyond any form of interval training in producing beneficial training effects among middle- and long-distance runners. He cited many examples of how interval training is abused by runners, and how it causes overtraining.William J. Kraemer, Ph.D. (Pennsylvania State Univ.):Most of the research on overtraining has focused primarily on endurance athletes, and that the markers for an overtrained state among anaerobic athletes (strength athletes) are quite different in many instances, and that overtraining is certainly more prevalent than among aerobic athletes. For strength athletes, the acute training variables, 1) choice of exercises, 2) order of exercise, 3) volume of exercise, 4) the training load and 5) rest must be manipulated carefully to avoid overtraining. Special reference was given to the inverse relationship that must occur between volume and load if overtraining is to be avoided. He repeatedly insisted that it is typically "training mistakes" that carry us there. These mistakes are easily avoided through careful periodization procedures being put in place in one’s training.Michael Stone, Ph.D. (Appalachian State Univ.):Dr. Stone presented interesting research he and his colleagues did with the members of the US Junior Weightlifting team (mean age of 18 years) at Colorado Springs. A serendipitous outcome resulted from the USOC’s allotment of too little time to adequately force these youngsters into an overtrained state. Stone and his colleagues challenged the lifters severely by imposing a wicked triple-split weight training regimen upon them for a full week. Volume, relative intensity, exercise intensity, exercise selection and rest were increased to what the researchers believed would be intolerable levels of stress. The result was that none showed any signs of overtraining or overreaching. Instead, they tolerated the training exceptionally well as was evidenced in improved stress-related markers (physical and biochemical) across the board. After a three week taper period, 75 percent of the youngsters posted personal records (as compared to the control group, 75 percent of which posted lower-than optimal attempts). Overcompensation had taken place after this three week taper more than had occurred in the conventional peaking cycle used by the controls. His response to questioning on this point was that US lifters simply do not train hard enough, making the point strongly that had he carried out the triple-split system much longer than the allotted week’s time, they would probably have overtrained. Judging from the abysmal placing of the male contingent of US weightlifters in international competition, Stone is probably right about the lifters undertraining -- it certainly has been my personal experience that this is so. Stone, as Kraemer, concluded that periodization is both the key to avoiding overtraining and improving peak performance. "Stress is Additive" was one of his central themes.Andrew C. Fry, Ph.D. (Memphis State Univ.):Unlike the field research designs used by Drs. Kraemer and Stone, Dr. Fry and his colleagues conducted a more controlled laboratory experiment. He had his subjects perform high volume/high intensity squats on a "Tru-Squat" apparatus which effectively isolates the quadriceps. After conducting a pilot study which showed decreased isokinetic strength and motor performance (but no change in 1RM), he greatly amplified the stress, resulting in significantly reduced 1RM, motor performance and isokinetic strength measures. Furthermore, there were only a few significant changes in the endocrine markers Dr. Fry monitored, and they were quite different from those typical in endurance overtraining studies, citing some important differences between intensity-related stress and endurance training-related stress.W. Benjamin Kibler, MD (Lexington Clinic):He presented his "operational" definition of overtraining as "physiological, biochemical and anatomical stresses causing cellular tissue breakdown, which lead to a decline in matrix production and homeostasis. The "material" failure which causes overtraining stems from cyclic or repetitive movement, tensile overload, vascular deficiency and/or hormonal imbalances. Mechanisms of the process were cited as being calcium ion influx, proteolysis and eccentric loading.My Personal Observations:First, I heartily agree with Dr. Kibler’s analysis. On the other hand, there’s too little evidence to flatly accept or reject the others. I sat next to Dr. Stone during this presentation, and his comment was that Dr. Kibler had aptly described "overuse," although such homeostasis decrease and tissue disruption could also accompany overtraining. I can’t WAIT to be enlightened more on this distinction! Makes one wonder what the difference is between overuse syndrome and overtraining, and also between overreaching and overload!In the talks over beers that ubiquitously accompany such symposia, it became quite clear to me that the only way overtraining among anaerobic (ATP/CP and glycolytic athletes) is ever going to be fully understood is 1) when longitudinal studies are done by researchers who are highly experienced in the art and science of resistance training, 2) when a team approach is used to gather data on athletes from all levels of experience across the US and in other countries who are experiencing overtraining/overreaching symptoms and then retrospective analyses are carried out in a joint effort to determine root causes, and 3) when the information gleaned from these field studies is taken into the laboratory for scrutiny and ultimately validated in further field studies.Concluding Comments:By far the most commonly referenced cause of overtraining is "cumulative microtrauma." Cellular damage from an overreaching episode that gets worse and worse over time (remember, stress is additive). There are two ways to cope with cumulative microtrauma. You can avoid it, or you can treat it. If you have to treat it, it’s too late! You avoid it NOT by avoiding lifting or by avoiding a small amount of (normal) cellular destruction, but instead by not letting microtrauma accumulate! You do this through:· Sensible, scientific weight training and light resistance systems of training which employs a carefully devised "periodicity" or "cycle" method· Varying your training methods· Sensible, scientific application of the many therapeutic modalities at your disposal (especially whirlpool, heat, ice, massage and soft tissue care (e.g., myofascial release / massage techniques)· Sensible, scientific nutritional practice· Sensible, scientific nutritional supplementation· Using good technique in your lifting· Getting plenty of rest· Taking advantage of various psychological techniques which promote restoration (especially meditation, visualization training, hypnotherapy or self-hypnosis techniques)· Avoiding all the other stressors in your life that can become problematic to your training efforts (whether environmental, psychological, sociological, biochemical, physiological or anatomical in nature).So, it all boils down to a simple plan. Most of the coaches of elite athletes in the USA will tell you that the single biggest problem with their athletes is not that they don't train enough, but that they train too much. I used to believe this too. Now, after years in the trench myself, I disagree. I think they can tolerate MUCH more training and benefit commensurably from it. This is definitely true of bodybuilders. First, you must "periodize" your training adequately. All progress must be gradual and orderly. What you do must be predicated upon what you've just accomplished. No system of training is like a "silver bullet." None will give you immediate success at your sport. Indeed, sticking to one program can actually hamper your progress. Take your time, be scientific and thorough, and -- above all -- follow the guidelines listed above. It's the best way to avoid overtraining! OVERTRAINING AND FATIGUE AMONG YOUNG POWERLIFTERS Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D. No exercise or training program proceeds completely free of difficulty. There are certain problems you're bound to encounter and, therefore, should be on the lookout for. Thorough knowledge of the potential problem is half the solution to it. If you know what to be on the lookout for, you're less likely to take the wrong path to begin with. It's discouraging to lose your forward momentum when you're already well into a serious powerlifting program, and an injury or a miscalculation in the amount of training you need to do can hurt you in more ways than one. Young, strong, enthusiastic athletes tend to overdo it once in a while. They want to train hard and fulfill their potential. They want to be the best they can be. Sometimes they don't know when to stop. They don't know when enough is enough. Or, they're just not willing to admit it, so dedicated are they to fitness perfection. Well, that's great attitude, but excess, in anything, can lead to distress. Too much of anything is no good for you. And that most definitely applies directly to the sort of intense loads borne by young powerlifters trying to get into contest shape. Overtraining: Overtraining is not exactly what it sounds like. It doesn't always mean that you have trained too much, but that perhaps you have trained for too long at the same level. Or, commonly, it can mean that you've overdone it with one or two exercises (e.g., too much weight, too frequently). Conditioning yourself to respond in an optimal manner to every test of fitness and strength you can apply can be extremely rewarding...for a while. And then, as you continue to live up to your own expectations, you hit a stale period, a state of poor performance, and skid into a slump. If three or four workouts in a row seem to be sub-par you may be in a state of overtraining. You may have let other factors, along with your leveling out of limit strength, influence the way you feel, react and train. While the main culprit causing overtraining is overuse -- called "cumulative microtrauma" -- often there is no one identifiable factor. Overtraining can sometimes be attributed to several factors that converge at the same time. You must be able to respond well to stress, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally. Therefore, there are other, non-training related, elements that affect your conditioning, some in ways that you don't even perceive. Problems in the following areas could have an effect on your training: 1. Academic/studies 2. Financial status 3. Family 4. Sexuality 5. Personality conflicts 6. Schedule conflicts 7. Poor training facilities 8. Monotony in training or lifestyle 9. Poor diet or sleep habits 10. Inadequate coaching 11. Lack of encouragement 12. Time-consuming or strenuous job that interferes with your workouts 13. Drugs 14. Poor coaching or personality conflicts with coach. 15. Inflicting too severe exercise stress upon your body. This is by far the MOST significant cause of overtraining! It used to be believed that there were two different types of physical overtraining, 1) Addisonic Overtraining and 2) Basedowic Overtraining. Nowadays, however, it is believed that the symptoms for each of these two types are what gave rise to the names, and that both stem from a common cause, "cumulative microtrauma." This is just a fancy name for getting a whole bunch of tiny (mircoscopic in size) "tears" in your muscles and connective tissues through high frequency severe or improper training. The first, "Addisonic" overtraining, is named after "Addison's Disease" in which the adrenal and pituitary glands are malfunctioning. Some of the symptoms of this form of training resemble the disease. This form of overtraining usually affects older or advanced athletes, and includes a slight overtired feeling, yet no increase in sleep needs, no weight loss, unusually low resting pulse rate, normal metabolic rate, higher blood pressure, but normal temperature and no psychological changes. In "Basedowic" overtraining, like "Addisonic" overtraining, the name is derived from a disease ("Basedow's Disease") in which the thyroid function is too high. While no disease, Basedowic overtraining symptoms include: easily tired, reduced appetite and weight loss, need more sleep, fast resting pulse rate, higher temperature and blood pressure, slower reaction time, and inability to perform skill movements. This type is more commonly seen in strength athletes and explosive athletes such as sprinters, jumpers and lifters. It also occurs in young athletes, less advanced athletes, and in easily excitable ones. Here are the signs to look for and the ways to monitor yourself for overtraining symptoms: Avoiding Overtraining: 1. Develop a schedule that doesn't stress you 2. Develop a rational training program 3. Conform your workouts to cycle training principles 4. Vary your training methods 5. Sleep 8 hours a night 6. Practice sound nutrition 7. Use appropriate supplements 8. Make the athlete/coach connection and work together 9. Take 1 or 2 naps a day. A 20-minute nap is all it takes to rejuvenate and energize you. 10. Find a sports medicine clinic or practitioner who can help you monitor blood pressure, white blood cell count and other symptoms of overtraining. 11. Let logic rule your training -- not ego!12. After workouts, whirlpool affected muscles. Then massage them vigorously for a minute or so. Use the "buddy" system for the vigorous massage. Injury-Free Training: Every time you climb under a bar crammed with pig iron plates, you risk the ultimate nightmare that all powerlifters dread -- injury. An injury can do more than put a crimp in your training program or sideline you for a few weeks. It can severely limit or end your lifting career. In short, there's nothing worse than an injury, so it's very important to devote time and attention to safe training practices and methods of conditioning that will keep you injury-free. Your muscles and joints undergo an amazing amount of stress in even the simplest of sports and athletic movements. So, you can imagine the stresses they undergo while powerlifting! Therefore, no unnecessary chances should be taken. One irrefutable motto for preventing injury is: Strong muscles and connective tissue can prevent injury. Here are some further factors which can ensure a state of overall fitness that protects your body from the problems every athlete risks. Guard against muscle weakness or imbalance: If you build one muscle more than another you risk injuring the weaker muscle. For instance, if you're a runner and want sprint speed, you'll work on your quadriceps. But if you build great strength in the quadriceps without also building strength in your hamstrings, you have what is called a muscle imbalance, and you leave yourself open to a hamstring pull. In the same manner, powerlifters often develop lower-back muscle problems because they neglect their abdominal muscles, which are crucial to back support. Flexibility Counts: When you strengthen or enlarge muscles you also tend to increase their tone, and that sometimes limits flexibility. To keep your muscles from getting too tight, you must have an ongoing flexibility program as part of your training. If you develop a muscle without also stretching for flexibility, and strengthening your muscles while they are in the stretched position, you leave yourself open to injury. If you simply stretch without strengthening, you can often leave yourself open to injury as well. There are many other common causes of sports injuries and sports scientists have identified many of these. Sometimes poor body mechanics, spinal imbalance, poor nutrition, dehydration, drug use or problems related to these areas can lead to injuries. But two special areas of potential injury must be looked at more closely. 1. Congenital weakness: You spine is a key factor in body mechanics. Its shape and resilience to stress are important. If you have too much curvature you could strain you back muscles. Also, malformed vertebrae in the spine can lead to muscle injury. Some people are born with these kinds of structural problems, and that is what is meant by congenital weakness. Such weaknesses are liable to appear anywhere in the body -- not just the spine. Often, a coach, health instructor or doctor can help you identify these problems and then work out a program for you to stretch or strengthen the necessary muscles so as to lessen the possibility of injury. The same kind of problems exist with "knock-knees" and pronated (inward drifting) feet. Corrective devices have been developed to treat these conditions. 2. Overtraining: Lack of progress or susceptibility to injury means something is wrong. If this happens you must take a close look at your training. You should never advance so quickly in your powerlifting routines that you experience high levels of pain. Also, if you train too long and/or too often, your muscles won't have a chance to adapt. The single biggest problem with athletes is that the quality of their training is lacking. It’s also true that sometimes they don't train enough. Sometimes it’s also true that they train too much. All three are related in that scientific methods of avoiding problems while making optimal progress are readily available. All progress must be gradual! Your conditioning efforts are not like a "silver bullet." They won't give you immediate success at your sport, and they can indeed hamper your progress if you push too hard too soon. Take your time, be scientific and thorough, and -- above all -- stick to the cycle training program! You must avoid overtraining! As long as you consistently follow an integrated training program, working out hard, but wisely, adding flexibility exercises where necessary, following sound nutritional and supplementation guidelines and getting sufficient rest, you'll achieve your strength goals much faster and be come better able to keep yourself in top condition. The better condition you're in, the easier it is to recover from an injury, or to avoid one in the first place. Remember to dedicate yourself to the health of your body as much as to the performance of your sport. Above all, NEVER lose your PASSION for STRENGTH!
	2005/07/08, 01:59 AM sorry to disagree...but a big part of the reason people overtrain when they train to failure is that they don't have enough recovery in between days or sets......yes if the case was a person trains on a full body split weekly....to failure on every set...then perhaps...but for myself this is not the case....the reason I push myself in the gym is because I have a LOT of time in between workouts to recover from just about anything....I also rest a long time in between workouts....this has been working like a charm ... there's no need to 'push' or not push oneself...it will be evident through one's performance....as to what kind of a day one is having...so pushing oneself is fine to me...just that if it's an off day the result will be weak....and opposite on a good day...there's no need to adjust the effort one puts into a workout...
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/08, 06:53 PM So, you're telling me that training all out all the time with the greatest effort will not lead to overtraining. Max effort from Westside is implemented the way I wrote it up top. Those guys push when they feel good and back off and maintain when they don't. It is called training smart is one of the key concepts in conjugated periodization. Also, I did say if you train to failure all the time not some of the times. I train a selected exercise to failure every 3-4 weeks and get great benefits from it. Are you also saying that everyone can train as hard as possible everyday of the week? "there's no need to 'push' or not push oneself.." You misunderstand my argument I think. I am saying push in both cases. When you don't feel good, you still push, you just don't do it as well as when you do feel good.
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/08, 07:09 PM A good article on traing to failure: The Final Rep: Re-evaluating the Practice of "Training to Failure" written by Charles I. Staley, B.Sc., MSS The notion of "training to failure" is perhaps one of the most revered practices in the modern bodybuilder's toolbox. But interestingly, this training method seems unique to bodybuilding. In other iron sports, such as Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, and throwing, athletes develop enormous levels of muscle mass without training to failure, at least not in the way that most bodybuilders would define it. This observation, coupled with the fact that many elite-level bodybuilders do not embrace this practice, warrants a second look at this concept. Birth of a Paradigm Many credit Arthur Jones (the inventor of Nautilus equipment) with developing and popularizing the one set to failure paradigm. Jones argued that bodybuilders should work to the point of momentary failure, using one set per exercise/per session, rather than using multiple sets of multiple exercises. But Jone's commercial success may been potentiated by a long-standing tradition among young trainees (particularly men) who, in the absence of qualified supervision, regularly trained to failure as an intuitive way of obtaining objective feedback about their progress. Whenever an additional rep could be performed with a given weight, the trainee was psychologically reinforced, which further entrenched this habit. Unfortunately, it also reinforced poor exercise form and the tremendous frustration that set in when, after several months of monotonous training, the inevitable plateau set in. This frustration then paved the way for numerous ill-conceived commercialized training systems that emerged over the past several decades. The result is an endless cycle of unsupervised trainees switching from one miracle method to another, in an endless search for the "perfect program." Before we criticize Jones or the authors of the many programs available today, it may be necessary to revise our expectations of what a training method should and shouldn't do. Remember that nearly any training method can be effective, at least temporarily, for the following reasons: 1) Beginners will make short-term progress with any training method, provided they aren't injured in the process. 2) Many people train in a very monotonous manner, rarely changing acute exercise variables such as choice of exercise, order of exercise, rest periods, and load (volume and intensity). When such a person changes programs, they will progress, at least temporarily. Conversely, NO training program is perfect because: 1) Everyone is different. No two people respond exactly the same to a given program. 2) The body will eventually accommodate to any program, and when it does, you hit a plateau. The conclusion that might be drawn from these points is that all methods can be viewed as "tools" which have a certain degree of utility when used in the proper proportion and in the right context. The problem is when a proclamation is made that "This is the perfect program for all people all of the time!" DEFINITIONS A significant impediment to discussing this issue is the lack of consistent working definitions for several terms which are germain to the discussion at hand: What is "Training to Failure"? The very definition of "training to failure" needs considerable clarification. Does it mean concentric failure? Eccentric failure? Inability to complete another repetition in good form? (and what is "good form?") Inability to maintain the desired tempo (speed of execution)? Are we referring to failure of the cellular, or neural system? Failure of the stabilizers, or prime movers? For the purposes of this discussion, "training to failure" describes training in a manner where each set is continued to the point where further concentric repetitions "in good form" cannot be completed under the lifter's own volition. Second, the notion of failure is inexorably linked to the magnitude of effort and ability to withstand pain and fatigue- both of which are subjective qualities. What is "Good Form?" While the amount of resistance, number of sets and reps, etc., constitute the quantitative element of training, good form (or exercise technique) can be seen as the qualitative element. Exercise technique includes range of motion, tempo, and control over the resistance being lifted. For the sake of variation, bodybuilders should plan for regular variations in tempo and range of motion. Such variations help to break through strength and hypertrophy plateaus. Control, however, should never be sacrificed, especially for the purpose of "eeking out" another repetition. For the sake of this discussion, "good form" will be defined as "exercise performance which is consistent with pre-determined objectives concerning range of motion, tempo, and control of the resistance." Using this definition, it is not considered bad form to lift a weight through a partial range of motion, as long as you pre-determined that the repetitions would be performed in that manner. On the other hand, if you planned to do parallel squats, and start losing depth due to fatigue, this would be considered bad form. Similarly, if you plan for a certain tempo (duration of each repetition) or even rest period, it would be considered bad form to alter these parameters in the middle of a workout. What is Intensity? Sports scientists and bodybuilders often assign two very different meanings to this term. In the sports sciences, intensity is usually defined as the difficulty of the work performed, expressed as a percentage of 1RM (One repetition maximum), or an athlete's maximum poundage for a single repetition for any given lift. Using this definition, if an athlete has a 1RM of 400 pounds in the leg press, a set performed with 350 pounds is more "intense" than a lift performed with 300 pounds, regardless of how many reps were performed, how close the set came to failure, or how much mental effort was applied. Most bodybuilders, on the other hand, define intensity as the magnitude of effort applied to a task. Using this definition, a leg press of 300 pounds might be more intense than a set with 350 pounds, if a greater effort was applied to that set. For our purposes then,we will distinguish between "extrinsic" intensity (or, the magnitude of the external load) and "intrinsic" intensity (or, the magnitude of effort applied against that load). It's important to recognize that extrinsic intensity is objective, and intrinsic intensity is subjective. In other words, we can measure the weight on the bar as a percentage of maximum, but when someone claims that they "went to failure," we have to take his or her word for it. Objectives and Methods of Training For bodybuilders, the object of training is muscular hypertrophy. The methods used to accomplish this objective are dictated by various training principles, most notably the principle of progressive overload. Fatigue, and occasionally failure, are unavoidable by-products of these methods. Viewing fatigue and/or failure as an objective of training (as many bodybuilders do) is masochistic and counterproductive. The hallmarks of successful training are long-term consistency and progression. But progression must be gradual- very gradual- if it is to be consistent. Many athletes insist on always taking a set to utter failure, even if it's not necessary to achieve a new personal record. But these same athletes neglect to project these gains into the future, which reveals the impossibility of continuing these gains. As an example, if you manage to put 5 pounds a week on your squat, this equates to 20 pounds a month, and 240 pounds a year. If this could be continued for even three years, you would be a national level powerlifter, with size to go along with it! A better approach is to achieve very small increases in load on a regular basis, even though you won't reach failure. These smaller increases are easier for the body to adapt to, and recuperate from. Taking each and every set to complete failure is like trying to run a marathon at sprint speed- after a very short period of sprinting, you'll have to slow down considerably, if you expect to finish the race. The Downside of One Set to Failure As stated earlier, few training practices or techniques are good or bad in the absolute sense. Most often, it's a matter of application and context. Performing all sets to failure (or, trying to) is particularly problematic, for the following reasons: 1) Insufficient training volume for hypertrophy development Many studies have confirmed that metabolic changes associated with muscular hypertrophy are best instigated through loading by high volumes, whereas neural adaptations are best brought about through high intensity loads. Training volume is calculated in pounds lifted per unit of time. If you plan to lift a certain weight for 5 sets of 5 reps, only the last set would approach concentric failure- if you went to failure on the first set, the subsequent sets would have to be performed with significantly less weight. This decreases volume, which can negatively impact muscular hypertrophy. International strength coach Charles Poliquin observes that for any two athletes on the same basic program, the athlete who uses a higher volume will have greater hypertrophy. This observation may be due in part to increased levels of anabolic hormones which are associated with multi-set (as opposed to single set) training. A second factor to consider with respect to the training load is that there is a limit to how long you can achieve progressions in intensity, but increases in volume can be achieved for a much longer period. For example, after about 9-10 years of solid training experience, you'll arrive at (or very close to) your maximum lifts (1RM's). Past this point, it becomes nearly impossible to increase the training load through increases in intensity. It's much more feasible at this point to increase training volume (by adding reps and/or sets). In this way, you can continue to make gains in muscle mass. 2) Injury potential, both acute and chronic, increases Noted exercise scientist Paul Ward warns that training to failure results in ischemic reperfusion, or oxygen deprivation, followed by oxygen perfusion. This results in massive free-radical damage to DNA and cell membranes. International Sports Sciences Association co-founder Dr. Sal Arria cautions that many soft tissue injuries occur when failure terminates a repetition in mid-stroke. "When the weight on the bar exceeds the muscle's ability to lift it, something has to give and usually, it's the musculotendonous junction." One of the most important functions of a spotter is to stay alert and keep the bar moving in order to avoid such injuries, according to Arria. According, to powerlifting legend Fred Hatfield, if fatigue is so great that stabilizers and synergists (which typically tire faster than the prime movers) become too fatigued to allow maintenance of proper form, you're asking for trouble. 3) Potential for overtraining increases Louie Simmons, well-known coach to many elite-level powerlifters finds that taking sets to failure "has an ill-effect on the central nervous system," which delays recovery. Simmons is noted for producing scores of high-ranked lifters with relatively low-intensity training 4) Regular failed attempts lead to a reduction in a lowering of the Golgi Tendon Organ (GTO) excitation threshold. Successful lifts which are above what the body is used to will raise the excitation threshold of the Golgi Tendon Organ, while failed attempts tend to lower it. What this means in bodybuilding parlance is that the more often you miss a lift, the more likely it is that you'll miss it again in the future. Is Training to Failure Necessary? Clearly, it is not. The overriding concept is that, like all training methods, training to failure is a tool. No tool should be used all the time for all applications. But used judiciously, it can be a useful training method. Any training program which plans for progressive resistance, consistency, and variation is likely to produce success. Recommendations 1) Plan and document your training. If your best effort in the bench press is 225 for five sets of five repetitions, your goal should be to surpass that effort- either by getting five more pounds for 5x5, or by getting a greater volume with the same weight. When you do, you'll progress, even if you don't go to failure on each and every set. Keeping a training log is a must in order to know what barriers you're trying to surpass. Use one! 2) Use and apply strictly defined technique parameters for yourself. Cheating (by utilizing co-contraction from non-targeted muscles) only encourages inefficient movement patterns, poor posture, and potentially, injuries. Your technique on the last rep should be identical to the technique you use on the first repetition. 3) Progress is a function of gradually increasing your training load over time- not how "trashed" you feel after a workout. 4) Careful attention to acute program variables can have a big impact on how much volume you can comfortably tolerate. Here are two examples: a) Muscles can be worked more thoroughly by first training in an unstable environment (i.e, free weights) which challenge the stabilizers, and then moving to a stable environment (i.e, machines). To test this for yourself, first do a set of dumbbell bench presses to fatigue. Next, load a barbell with the same weight, and immediately do a set. You will find that you can lift this weight, despite failure on the DB bench. Next, go to a machine bench press, load it with the same weight, and you'll find that you can continue even further. This phenomenon is an example of "stabilizer failure"; meaning that the motor cortex will limit neural drive to the prime movers when it senses that the body is unable to stabilize a load. This phenomenon has vast implications for the majority of trainees who primarily work prime movers through machine exercises only. b) Because fatigue is specific5, greater workloads are possible if sets of contrasting exercises are performed back to back, as opposed to finishing all sets for a particular exercise before proceeding to the next. As an example, if you plan to perform bench presses and lat pulldowns in the same session, sets 1,3,5, etc., would be bench presses, and sets 2,4,6, etc., would be lat pulldowns. The more distant the two muscle groups are from one another, the greater the reduction in residual fatigue. Still another method of reducing fatigue is to alternate between low repetition sets, which fatigue primarily the nervous system, with high repetition sets, which fatigue primarily the metabolic system. The low repetition sets facilitate greater neural drive, which carries over to the high repetition set, allowing a greater overall workload to be performed. c) Except for beginners, a linear progressions of training load, where the athlete attempts to add resistance each and every workout, result in early stagnation and loss of improvement. A more productive approach is a "three steps up, one step down approach" which allows for periodic regeneration and continued improvement. 5) For hypertrophy development, remember that muscles consist of more than just contractile fibers. Use a variety of repetition ranges to stimulate all elements of the muscle cell- including sarcoplasmic volume, capillary density, and mitochondria proliferation. (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) 6) It is especially important to recognize the qualitative components of a good set- elements such as the feel, control, and overall mastery of the movement. Over-reliance on achieving the maximum number of repetitions at any cost is an invitation to injury and long-standing technique errors. A useful guideline is "Once you find yourself cheating, you're already beyond failure!" 7) Stick to conventional or "basic" training methods until they no longer yield results. If your neuromuscular system experiences every strength training method known to science in your first year of training, what will you do when you hit a plateau? Save "advanced" methods, such as partial repetitions, eccentric training, and ballistic methods for later, when you're advanced. Training to Failure: Traditional and Revised Definitions The majority of trainees define training to failure as continuing a set of repetitions (including both the concentric and eccentric portions of the rep) until no further repetitions are possible without a considerable erosion of form, or assistance from a partner, or both. Frequently, after concentric failure is reached, the trainee will continue the set, either by cheating (utilizing co-contraction from additional muscle groups), or with the help of a partner by either 1) completing a certain number of eccentric-emphasized reps, 2) performing "forced reps" (ie., utilizing help on both the concentric and eccentric portions of the reps), or performing "strip sets," meaning, the partner continues to reduce the weight on the bar until no further repetitions can be completed. Other authors have rightly pointed out the fact that failure is specific to fiber type. As an example, you may select a heavy weight, and reach failure after performing 3 repetitions. While no further repetitions are possible with this weight, it would still be possible to lower the weight (as in a strip-set) and continue even further. Olympic lifters terminate their sets when the ideal tempo and/or coordination erodes beyond acceptable parameters. For this reason, Olympic lifters rarely if ever utilize spotters, even on their heaviest maximum attempts, since (at least in theory) the worst thing that can happen is that the last rep will be slower than desired. Is One Set Really Enough? Many proponents of the "one set to failure" method justify their claims by suggesting that one set is sufficient to recruit a maximal number of motor units. While this may be true (although there is little solid data to support this statement), this approach assumes that simply recruiting a motor unit once is sufficient to fatigue it, which is a prerequisite to hypertrophic adaptations. For beginning trainees, it may be that single exposures to a training stimulus are sufficient to provoke an adaptation. But athletes with even moderate experience are likely to require multiple exposures (sets) in order to fatigue the target motor units9. Hypertrophy of other biological tissues is accomplished not by stressing the tissue close to its limits, but by applying a stress which is slightly beyond what it normally encounters. Bone, as an example, hypertrophies when a force equalling approximately one-tenth it's breaking point is applied. This example supports the contention that gradual progression is the ideal method for achieving muscular growth.
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/08, 07:12 PM This article says it better than I ever could have.
	2005/07/08, 09:30 PM logged out
	2005/07/09, 06:13 AM no offense...but ronnie colemand trains like a little girl...I watched his videos and his intensity is considerably lower than mine even(my friend felt the same way, he trains similarly to me)....his 800 squat for 3 reps....was a good 3-5 reps shy of his max it felt like...he almost never maxed out on anything...shoulder presses he did with 160s for his max of 6 reps I think...otherwise he didn't even max on even his last sets...however he's a bodybuilder so his methods of training are different...
arondaballer Posts: 1,054 Joined: 2003/06/14	2005/07/09, 11:43 AM Coleman may be a bodybuilder, but for him to be training like a little girl and have the results he has is questionable. That dude is strong as hell. And like you said he might train differently than you. Not everyone maxes themselves all the time-that doesn't mean their training is weak. -------------- I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious. --Vince Lombardi "Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2005/07/09, 12:11 PM menace and man of steel, I think you guys are missing the point here. Everyone’s body responds to training differently. In this instance, the thread was started by a young lifter that hasn’t been progressing in his bench press, and thinks that the cause may be that the intensity is too high. You guys may respond great to that type of training, but in this instance, ianakers is not responding well. If you aren’t progressing, then why continue what you are already doing. If he FEELS like he is overtraining, then he probably is. Menace and man of steel, you guys may respond great to this type of training, but that doesn’t mean ianakers will. Ronnie Coleman responds to training like a girl, Arnold responded to everything, and Mike Mentzer responded to HIT (let the steroid discussion begin). While there are some people that can do high intensity, high volume, “hardcore training,” its just not for everyone. As for the hardcore debate, I nominate Chuck Vogelpohl. He is a beast. Have you seen his video. Its scarry. Literally. I had nightmares. Training that way would kill a lesser man.
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2005/07/09, 12:48 PM amenacmenace, this is entirely out of curiousity, but how do you train each lift every 2.5-3 weeks? Do you just do bodypart training, or are you talking about some form of conjugated periodization, like westside, where you just change exercises every week?
	2005/07/09, 04:40 PM wrestler/aron you missed my point....coleman's weights are anything but those of a little girl...i was referrring to his intensity...I fight for every rep of every set....he on the other hand had gives it like 50% effort...Most natural lifters also hav eonly X amount of energy/strength/endurance/etc...so lifting for 30 sets to kill muscles through sheer volume often suggests the usage of steroids.....also keep in mind that he pre-exhausts his muscles as well....he did leg extensions for 4-5 sets before doing his squats in that video...which obviously robs him of power....but then again he's a powerlifter so training for muscle is his key priority...still...in the offseason I expect him to go with a higher intensity than he did, especially being known for it...Dexter Jackson said that he watches Coleman's videos when he needs some motivation ...but coleman's videos are anything but that...he doesn't push himself....just my take on it... Wrestler also keep in mind that I wasn't suggesting this routine for the original poster, I was simply justifying my training to gatormade who suggested this sort of training leads to overtraining... For me my training just comes out this way after trial and error...my body experiences fairly severe DOMS, or at least used to before I started taking L-glutamine and L-carnitine+ALA(in one product).....I basically decided to do a bodypart split centered around the big lifts for very low reps and low volume....so I used to train on a 5 bodypart split...and I needed at least 4-5 days after back and legs of recovery...which stretched rest days between my workouts out.....my big strength/muscles progressed well...it's mostly my arms that stopped responding after a while because they need more frequent stimulation...so now I am trying 3-4 bodypart split and try to work in biceps in more workouts...I stick with my exercises for a long time...but keep in mind that I get about 1 back/leg workout every 3 weeks....so that in 3 months I get just 4 workouts....and I keep going until I stop progressing then I might switch up an exercise or use some other technique to push myself harder....
	2005/07/09, 04:43 PM ronnie coleman=bodybuilder not powerlifter lol
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2005/07/09, 06:00 PM Then it makes sense to say that you are prone to overtraining, its just that your avoiding it by taking longer breaks in between training. You say that you don't think that that type of lifting leads to overtraining, but in the same breath you say that you need to take 2+ week breaks in between bodypart sessions. I am interested in finding out more about how you break up your routine. I think its great that you found a way to work around it, and whats more a way to progress, but in this instance, with the kid benching 2* per week and maxing out every set, I think he is overtraining. And im not refering to your post where you explained your training to gator, Im talking about your first post, when you said that his training to failure had nothing to do with his plateaus or overtraining. -------------- The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
	2005/07/09, 06:43 PM plateaus are all but inevitable...and yes I don't believe they are necessarily as a result of training to failure...they are more a factor of lifting in general...there's going to be a point where a lifter will hit the wall with just about any routine or training style... Overtraining results from not allowing your body to recover from whichever style of training one chooses...again it has nothing to do with training to failure...I understand training to failure puts more stress on the body...but so what? if a lifter is aware of this then he/she can adjust the amount of rest days in between workouts/body part training/rest periods between sets...etc...to adjust for the more intense style of training....overtraining is a error in judgemnent...and not necessarily related to a specific style of training.... I also never said that training to failure is appropriate if someone does a lot of volume or trains frequently.... I always emphasize that with my style of training...I #1 take a long time in between workouts(even with unrelated muscles to allow my body to recover)...and especially between same bodypart #2 I rest considerably longer in between sets than most people(sometimes 20-30 minutes) #3 I have low/very low(depends on a workout) volume(Yates type workout)- I also take time off when I feel I have no energy or feel I can't give it 100%....as was the case last week...where I took almost 8 days off because of trip/being sick... I also don't recommend training big body parts more than once a week..... I read an article about this Canadian strongman a while back...he does fullbody compound training once every 2 weeks...for 8 exercises....1 warm up set at 50% and then 1rm set....covering all major muscles... at 180lb...he was squating over 500, deadlifting over 600( i think), he was curling over 300 lb ....(not with strict form tho...and was trying to become first man to do 400)....his stats were insane...so this gave me an idea to create a similar style of training where I don't need to train as frequently...being able to do other things like play basketball or whatever else....but ofcourse I don't train like him,....I simply took some key ideas from hsi training...here's a guy training twice a month...and lifting insane amounts of weight for his size...has to be doing soemthing right....so that's why my training has elements of bodybuilding/powerlifting/strongman..etc..I also adjust my training so that my lagging bodyparts keep up as well...whether it's higher reps or whatever else..
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/09, 11:43 PM I suggested that training to failure all of the time leads to failure. Not your type of training does. You need to let your personal emotions go here. Not one time did I attack your style. I said this: "#1 is the 1st big one you should pay attention to. If you train to failure all of the time then you are training yourself to fail. Your body operates on a rythem that flucuates daily. Some days are better than others. On the days you feel great then push your limits. On days you don't feel great then do what you need to do to feel good about the training session." READ THE ENTIRE POST before responding when you are emotionally charged. I agree with how you train. You stated that you take plenty of rest between workouts. My posts agree with that if you take the time to read. So, chill out. I am talking about training to failure all the time like juiced up Mike Mentzer used to do. :angry:
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/09, 11:50 PM I train on the Westside system(slightly modified to meet my goals). I tested today and here were my (RAW)results. Squat: 751 (I had 740 with 5.5lb collars on) Bench: 477 (I had 475 with 1 lb collars on) Deadlift: 702( I had 700 with 1lb collars on) This is a total of 1930. This is the style of training that works for me. Please remember that I was originally answering this guys post. He asked if he was training to hard. I listed the biggest identifiers of overtraining. You took it as a shot to your style when I never mentioned you in the original post. Bro, you are not the only hard core guy on here.
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/10, 12:10 AM Menace: Are you at South Florida? I was serious when I asked you to come up and train. I like training with other hard core gym rats. It's the best way to get better.
	2005/07/10, 12:49 AM Gatormade I think you misinterpreted my post....I wasn't mad or 'emotionally charged'...I was just saying I disagree with assertion that training to failure leads one to fail...it's catchy to say but I disagree with it...Also I am not challenging any1's manhood....I knew full well that you had strong numbers in the lifts...I was just using myself as example to show that training to failure doesn't lead one to fail per se...I read the whole post you wrote by that other trainer...and I tried to address key issues...using my own training as an example that disproves it...once again I am not pissed or anything of the sort...nor did I think you were challenging my training methods... Gatormade I would love to come train with you...I am sure I can learn a ton...however I live in california...ways off...
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2005/07/10, 12:58 PM yes, you are right. Training to failure does not lead one to fail. However, training to failure, all the time, 2* a week, on every set, can lead to overtraining, which can be one cause of a plateau. Not necessarily your type of training, but the training of the original poster here, iankers. In my original post when i first stated, "Training to failure is training to fail.", I should have been more open minded. You have found a great way to work to failure, and still see positive gains. However, the lifter in question is lifting on a high school program, and benching 2* per week... I would say, that he should either lower the intensity in some of his first couple sets, or take an easier week, such as a tapering week, every 3-5 weeks, to keep his body fresh and allow for supercompensation. Your own training is an exeption to the rule, and a valid one, not because you are a genetic freak or you juice, but because you are listening to your body and taking longer rest periods. I suggest that iankers learn to do the same, whether by reducing overall intensity, or by possibly taking longer periods in between lifting. Either way, the most important thing is to learn how to listen to your body. -------------- The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
wrestler125 Posts: 4,619 Joined: 2004/01/27	2005/07/10, 01:01 PM menace, i think it would be worth the flight out to florida. I wish I had someone as knowledgable as gator up in new york to train with... I've had to do most of my learning through books, the internet, experiance, and the occasional trip to pennsylvania and new jersey for seminars. Sometimes I wish i lived in ohio, cause can you imagine what you would learn from a trip to westside. If it didnt kill you that is...
	2005/07/10, 04:56 PM Wrestler you misinterpreted what i was trying to say.....I wasn't saying that it's an appropriate way of training for that person in particular...All I was saying that it's a possible training programs among many....which can be successful if used properly.... FOr the last time I have never ever ever...smoked cigarretes, weed, done any type of drugs, including any steroids/prohormones.....I would feel cheated...if I did... Yes I wish I could train with gator...he seems like a very smart and caring person...but right now my funds are limited....so perhaps some time in the future if the offer holds...I appreciate his invitation....
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/10, 05:01 PM You guys are welcome to come train anytime you're in Florida. I'm always looking for a good training partner.
ianakers Posts: 127 Joined: 2005/02/06	2005/07/11, 02:31 PM man_of_steel that's insane how did you do that? i guess i'll try taking one of teh days a little easier but it just doesnt seem right
gatormade Posts: 1,355 Joined: 2003/10/01	2005/07/11, 06:16 PM manosteel - I used to and still do sometimes get the same thing from people. I have never even taken creatine let alone steroids and because I train hard and am genetically inclined. It used to bother me. Then I got to the point where I decided that I would not let any single person try to steal my talent by letting their sh*t talk bother me. To hell with what uneducated jealous people think. We're the ones in the right!
ianakers Posts: 127 Joined: 2005/02/06	2005/07/11, 08:19 PM man_of_steel what kind of workout did u do? its almost time for football season to end and i'm not in the weightlifting class so i'll be free to do whatever kind of program i want. im not expecting gains like yours but anything dven close would be great.
ianakers Posts: 127 Joined: 2005/02/06	2005/07/12, 03:10 PM what kind of supplements did you use other than protein powder, or should i just not worry about that yet
	2005/07/12, 05:16 PM ianakers stick to the basics.....if you got at least a year of training then you may consider taking creatine....but it doesn't work the same for everyone...