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2005/12/05, 01:25 AM
I would normally post something like this in the powerlifting forum, as the posters there tend to be slightly more cutting edge and open. However, I intend to spark controversy.
I catch a lot of crap because a lot of the guys I have trained (athletes) go one full body workouts. Some people feel this is outdated. I disagree, I sometimes feel that frequency as opposed to supercompensation and volume may be the key to progress. The following is from Alwyn Cosgroves "Program Design Bible."
If you don't know who AC is, and you are serious about ATHLETIC training, then find out, especially if you are a combat athlete.
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Bodybuilding programs are largely based upon the false concept that muscles somehow work in isolation. A question I am often asked is ?How should I split up my body parts when I train?? The notion that your body is comprised of several independent muscle systems that have no crossover effect is a massive misunderstanding of human physiology. Functionally the body is a single unit, designed to work as a linked system?you cannot isolate a muscle.
Consider the following example ? hold a dumbbell in your right hand and raise your arm out to the side until it is parallel with the floor (a position known as a lateral raise in the fitness world!). Which muscles are working? The classic answer is the medial deltoid and the trapezius. True. But maintain this position and just touch your obliques on the left side. They are contracting maximally in order to stabilize your torso, spine and prevent you from tipping over. So the oblique has to contract so hard in order to stabilize your entire upper body, plus your arm and the Dumbbell, it becomes clear that this exercise forces more work from the oblique muscles, the TFL and the quadratus lumborum than it can from the medial deltoid! So is it still a shoulder exercise? Or is it a total core and shoulder exercise? What body part day should this movement be trained on? Hopefully this helps you realize that the body will always work as a unit.
And I don?t mean to ?bag? on bodybuilding. One cannot help but be impressed by top athletes in any sport. But the fact that it?s a sport is also an important thing to remember. Bodybuilding is a unique sport unto itself. For trainers to develop and implement a fitness program for the general client using bodybuilding theory and bodybuilding type exercises makes as much sense as using Ultimate Fighting, World?s Strongest Man type exercises or Olympic weightlifting to design that same program. And while most people recognize that this is idiotic at best, we still continue to talk about splitting up ?body parts? and following a bodybuilding based program.
If my client is not a powerlifter, a powerlifting specific program is not warranted. If my client is not competing in a Strongman competition then a Strongman specific program is not warranted. Now that?s not to say that we don?t use exercises or ideas from all sports and systems (remember ? Absorb what is useful?) as to do so would be closed-minded. But to adopt any one single philosophy is just as closed-minded.
Now we have to consider the anabolic steroid issue. Although I do not have the room to really go into detail on this subject, nor do I quite honestly have the experience or qualifications to do so, it would be short-sighted of me to ignore the influence of these drugs on the sport of bodybuilding. If you understand the influence of bodybuilding on general fitness, and you understand the influence of drugs on competitive bodybuilding, hopefully you can see what I am getting at.
In fact, if you look at the biggest and most muscular pre-steroid era bodybuilders, they all trained each body part (in effect their entire body) two to three times per week. The entire body part training split was never based on science. In fact the method ?arrived? about the same time as steroids became popular. Now the drug user could do a ton of volume for one part of the body and still recover. Shortly after that came the notion of 3-4 exercises per body part for 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps. The volume increases came after the drugs.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/05, 01:29 AM
I would like to emphasize that last paragraph.
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In fact, if you look at the biggest and most muscular pre-steroid era bodybuilders, they all trained each body part (in effect their entire body) two to three times per week. The entire body part training split was never based on science. In fact the method ?arrived? about the same time as steroids became popular. Now the drug user could do a ton of volume for one part of the body and still recover. Shortly after that came the notion of 3-4 exercises per body part for 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps. The volume increases came after the drugs.
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Now while I may catch hell for this, I stand by it. I am not against body part splits, they are a tool, just like total body workouts. Make the program fit the individual, not the other way around. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. A proper assessment of ones goals should take place whenever determineing a program, and both TBT and Body part splits should be tools.
For the record I follow conjugated periodization, training upper and lower in seperate workouts (movements, not muscle splits) and train each part of my body 2* per week, plus extra workouts.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/06, 01:14 AM
I don't think this is nearly as 'provocative' as you think it is wrestler...I agree with pretty much everything he says....I like to read and implement many types of ideas in my own training....so he's pretty much dead on....bottom line is that one shouldn't get fixated on one style of training especially if that style of training doesn't directly go together with what you're using it for....
for example best curl I ever done didn't involve a barbell or DB...it involved object from real life .... heavy sledgehammer........by this logic it would be interesting to see olympic lifters try to clean and jerk a boulder the way strongman have to lift it....or training with ever moving objects...I remember either you wrestler or gator posted a way of training with barrels filled with water.....
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2005/12/06, 01:28 AM
Thats because you already understand it and are more open to other ideas involving training. That is how you got to were you are.
There are many individuals out there that swear that if your not splitting into body parts, then you are doing it wrong. Trust me, I catch a lot of hell for it.
I posted a couple of articles by Coach Allen Hedrick, the S&C coach for Army. He's known for his hardcore functional training. Zach Even-Esh and Alwyn Cosgrove are also known for utilizing kegs. Interesting that these two are probably the most well reknowned strength coaches in the MMA industry. Something must be right. Even if it goes against the grain.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/06, 08:51 AM
Take a barbell that weighs 150lbs pick it up...for most strong lifters not a problem.....take them out to a home improvment store and have then move sandbags, or flagstones.....not many can lift it as easy. I lift hard and heavy but in the summer I also do awkward lifting....it helps when those friends ask me to move things....
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/12/06, 12:38 PM
Have absolutely no problem with this post. I am an "old school" trainer myself. Excellent post Wrestler.
I fell as probably most of us did for all the splits, etc, one bodypart, all that. It is odd, the more I progressed mentally with my bodybuilding knowlege, the more I went back to my old school beginnings. :)
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2005/12/08, 12:56 PM
I've noticed that as well. I am very heavily into alot of the exercise physiology, but a lot of it goes back to what you might call "Old School Training." John Davies is known for applying new methods to old school training, and very scucessfully.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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