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2006/03/13, 09:46 PM
There are thousands of studies proving the effectiveness of creatine as a dietary supplement. However, a vast majority of these studies were done on endurance athletes on high carbohydrate diets. My point:
Creatine is found in protein. It is a combination of amino acids, which are the building blocks of protein. If you are on a high protein diet, you are probably getting more than enough creatine. Creatine is a usefull supplement, but I have never seen it do all that much for someone that was already getting a gram of protein per kilogram of bodyweight.
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2006/03/14, 01:40 AM
You are correct that a person's foremost need is a higher protein intake. However, a majority of the more recent studies (last 8-10 years) have been done with high protein diets in relation to creatine effectiveness. Most of these studies now conclude that taking creatine monohydrate with at least 50% protein and 50% carbs offers the best uptake of the product. It is true that creatine (by itself) is made up mostly of aminos, as is protein, but that does not automatically create a correlation between the two; it is not in protein. Aminos make up many things, not all of which are protein. Taking in alot of protein sources, such as fish and beef, and not just isolated proteins, as in powders, does allow the intake of creatine; not because of the protein that is present, but because the creatine is present in the source, as well as the protein.
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Michael
Powerlifters -
We eat raw meat, and sleep naked in the snow...
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2006/03/14, 11:27 AM
Agree completely with Rev here. While it is true that creatine is the formation of 3 amino acids, namely arginine, glycine and methionine, it is not a magic process that is done with simply the intake of proteins.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/03/14, 03:14 PM
Yes, but none of those amino acids are completely essential, although arginine is sometimes considered to be essential as it is not metabolized at a high rate, but that is not directly related to its synthesis.
I realize that taking creatine with protein and carbohydrates is the best option for maximal uptake. This is not what I am bringing up. However, I am referring to the diets that were used in most of the studies are lacking overall in protein intake. In a diet lacking in protein intake, creatine will have a well pronounced effect.
Also, creatine is found ALONG SIDE protein. Not only is it metabolized through protein synthesis, but it is found in every food containing protein, that is my main point. A kilogram of steak will contain over 5 grams of creatine alone. I just don't see how it would be possible to get so much protein and still have a need for supplementation. I think many people overdo supplementation, and even as someone that does not eat red meat, I feel it would be better to get that 5 grams from a steak than a monohydrate.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/03/15, 11:14 AM
A couple well done studies, and these folks were not protein deficient.... :)
Increased IGF mRNA in human skeletal muscle after creatine supplementation.
Deldicque L, Louis M, Theisen D, Nielens H, Dehoux M, Thissen JP, Rennie MJ, Francaux M.
Department of Physical Education and Rehabilitation, Faculty of Medicine, Catholic University of Louvain, Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium.
PURPOSE: We hypothesized that creatine supplementation would facilitate muscle anabolism by increasing the expression of growth factors and the phosphorylation of anabolic signaling molecules; we therefore tested the responses of mRNA for IGF-I and IGF-II and the phosphorylation state of components of anabolic signaling pathways p70(s6k) and 4E-BP1 to a bout of high-intensity resistance exercise after 5 d of creatine supplementation. METHODS: In a double-blind cross-over design, muscle biopsies were taken from the m. vastus lateralis at rest and 3 and 24 h postexercise in subjects who had taken creatine or placebo for 5 d (21 g x d(-1)). For the first 3 h postexercise, the subjects were fed with a drink containing maltodextrin (0.3 g x kg(-1) body weight x h(-1)) and protein (0.08 g x kg(-1) body weight x h(-1)). RESULTS: After creatine supplementation, resting muscle expressed more mRNA for IGF-I (+30%, P < 0.05) and IGF-II (+40%, P = 0.054). Exercise caused an increase by 3 h postexercise in IGF-I (+24%, P < 0.05) and IGF-II (+48%, P < 0.05) and by 24 h postexercise in IGF-I (+29%, P < 0.05), but this effect was not potentiated by creatine supplementation. The phosphorylation states of p70(s6k) and 4E-BP1 were not affected by creatine at rest; phosphorylation of both increased (150-400%, P < 0.05) to similar levels under placebo and creatine conditions at 3 h postexercise plus feeding. However, the phosphorylation state of 4E-BP1 was higher in the creatine versus placebo condition at 24 h postexercise. CONCLUSION: The increase in lean body mass often reported after creatine supplementation could be mediated by signaling pathway(s) involving IGF and 4E-BP1.
Comparison of creatine ingestion and resistance training on energy expenditure and limb blood flow.
Arciero PJ, Hannibal NS 3rd, Nindl BC, Gentile CL, Hamed J, Vukovich MD.
Exercise Science Department, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, USA.
This study determined the effects of 28 days of oral creatine ingestion (days 1 to 5 = 20g/d; : days 6 to 28 = 10 g/d; ) alone and with resistance training (5 hours/week) on resting metabolic rate (RMR), body composition, muscular strength (1RM), and limb blood flow (LBF). Using a double-blind, placebo-controlled design, 30 healthy male volunteers (21 +/- 3 years; 18 to 30 years) were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups; pure creatine monohydrate alone (Cr; n = 10), creatine plus resistance training (Cr-RT; n = 10), or placebo plus resistance training (P-RT; n = 10). Body composition (DEXA, Lunar DPX-IQ), body mass, bench, and leg press 1RM (isotonic), RMR (indirect calorimetry; ventilated hood), and forearm and calf LBF (venous occlusive plethysmography) were obtained on all 30 subjects on 3 occasions beginning at approximately 6:00 AM following an overnight fast and 24 hours removed from the last training session; baseline (day 0), and 7 days and 29 days following the interventions. No differences existed among groups at baseline for any of the variables measured. Following the 28-day interventions, body mass (Cr, 73.9 +/- 11.5 v 75.6 +/- 12.5 kg; Cr-RT, 78.8 +/- 6.7 v 80.8 +/- 6.8 kg; P <.01) and total body water (Cr, 40.4 +/- 6.8 v 42.6 +/- 7.2 L, 5.5%; Cr-RT, 40.6 +/- 2.4 v 42.3 +/- 2.2 L, 4.3%; P <.01) increased significantly in Cr and Cr-RT, but remained unchanged in P-RT, whereas, fat-free mass (FFM) increased significantly in Cr-RT (63 +/- 2.8 v 64.7 +/- 3.6 kg; P <.01) and showed a tendency to increase in Cr (58.1 +/- 8.1 v 59 +/- 8.8 kg; P =.07). Following the 28-day period, all groups significantly increased (P <.01) bench (Cr, 77.3 +/- 4 v 83.2 +/- 3.6 kg; Cr-RT, 76.8 +/- 4.5 v 90.5 +/- 4.5 kg; P-RT, 76.0 +/- 3.4 v 85.5 +/- 3.2 kg), and leg press (Cr, 205.5 +/- 14.5 v 238.6 +/- 13.2 kg; Cr-RT, 167.7 +/- 13.2 v 238.6 +/- 17.3 kg; P-RT, 200.5 +/- 9.5 v 255 +/- 13.2 kg) 1RM muscular strength. However, Cr-RT improved significantly more (P <.05) on the leg press 1RM than Cr and P-RT and the bench press 1RM than Cr (P <.01). Calf (30%) and forearm (38%) LBF increased significantly (P <.05) in the Cr-RT, but remained unchanged in the Cr and P-RT groups following the supplementation period. RMR expressed on an absolute basis was increased in the Cr (1,860.1 +/- 164.9 v 1,907 +/- 173.4 kcal/d, 2.5%; P <.05) and Cr-RT (1,971.4 +/- 171.8 v 2,085.7 +/- 183.6 kcal/d, 5%; P <.05), but remained unchanged from baseline in P-RT. Total cholesterol decreased significantly in Cr-RT (-9.9%; 172 +/- 27 v 155 +/- 26 mg/dL; P <.01) compared with Cr (174 +/- 46 v 178 +/- 43 mg/dL) and P-RT (162 +/- 32 v 161 +/- 36 mg/dL) following the 28-day intervention. These findings suggest that the addition of creatine supplementation to resistance training significantly increases total and fat-free body mass, muscular strength, peripheral blood flow, and resting energy expenditure and improves blood cholesterol. Copyright 2001 by W.B. Saunders Company
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/03/15, 09:54 PM
The abstract in these studies does not indicate the type of diet the individuals were following. Do you have the full reports? My subscription is up, so I'm left buying individual reports.
In addition, the only data collected in the first study was the hormone levels prior to exertion.
Only here can I actually find people that want to discuss this stuff with me.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/03/16, 10:27 AM
Yes, I do have the full reports, but I get the feeling they will do not good. Don't feel like any "discussion", the choice is yours or anyone elses who reads this thread whether creatine is worth it or not.
It is one of the few proven supplements that do work.
While I will grant you that most folks due to selling hype take creatine way too early and therefore do not even know if it really works, in other words they are making gains their body normally would beginning anyway, in well trained folks, I being one of them and many I know, it most definitely works.
And trust me, I take in plenty of protein. There is a huge difference in strength when I use a top brand of creatine, and a subsequent falloff when I stop.
Don't use it if you don't want to. :)
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/03/16, 02:33 PM
I use it. However, I do not eat red meat. I have trained many guys that followed a high protein diet based around red meat that experianced nothing from it. And then many others that have seen great results. The purpose was to present a discussion point.
I am not disputing its effectiveness. I am questioning the need for supplementation in certain instances.
Seems like a good idea for my thesis. Although thats a few years off.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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