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2004/12/02, 11:55 AM
I've given creatine over a year now and somehow it just doesn't do a thing for me. I've used the Trac brand which I was told by many to be a great quality product. I used it properly-cycled on and off, drank enough water, etc. but I never saw any effect size wise or energy wise on me. I have enough energy anyway. The only reason I used creatine was because I thought it would increase mass. Should I try a different product? Or should I just forget creatine and stick with eating enough and getting the right protein?
Thanks,
Dave
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2004/12/02, 04:30 PM
Eat right and train hard. You will be happy with the results.
Some people just don't respond to the creatine supplement.
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"A will finds a way, failure is not an option"
Ivan
carivan@freetrainers.com
Montreal Canada
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2004/12/04, 07:44 AM
Without the right eating plan and heavy enough workouts, creatine is a waste of money.
You look like you are doing okay, by your photos.
Have you measured and re=measured, maybe you are adding size without realizing it.
Keep lifting heavy and eating clean, it takes time.
be sure you are eating enough to support muscle gain and don't do too much cardio.
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"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." Marcel Proust
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2004/12/04, 10:43 AM
You may be a creatine non responder.
Also, creatine has been given this god like status that it will make folks huge....it has been called everything from a hormone to a steroid. FAct is, it is produced daily in your liver, all you are doing is topping off your normal production, or building up your lack of depending on your age. The way creatine puts mass on is you can/should have a bit more explosiveness, thus be able to use heavier weights for a couple more reps. This results in more overload of the muscle, which with proper diet should result in more muscle growth. It is a cell volumizer, and does draw water into the cell. This is where the weight gain comes in, and where the weight gain goes when getting off of it. But any muscle you build is yours to keep.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/04, 01:58 PM
trying taking more sugar with it...i tried D-ribose supplement along with it...and it works wonders for me...30 minutes on empty stomach before workout...tho it could be placebo effect...but i don't care..heh
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2004/12/07, 12:20 PM
What I never did do is a loading technique. Trac doesn't require loading. I think i'll try a different product, namely "optimum nutrition" , and do the loading and see what happens. Anyone use that brand before?
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2004/12/07, 12:23 PM
You may want to hold up on that. Many creatine non responders have donw well with the new CEE(creatine ethyl ester). If you want to give it a couple weeks, follow my log I posted(it is a sticky at the top) of the supplement section of this board. You can see my results, and see maybe if this is the way for you to go.
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Quoting from daveharris:
What I never did do is a loading technique. Trac doesn't require loading. I think i'll try a different product, namely "optimum nutrition" , and do the loading and see what happens. Anyone use that brand before?
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/07, 03:06 PM
Dave, to answer your last question, any creatine with the creapure stamp is ok. Would it be worth trying plain micronized creatine with water and following the loading plan just to see what happens?
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/12/09, 10:44 AM
Thanks for all the help..one more question..it it ok to drink a cup of coffee each morning while using creatine?
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2004/12/09, 10:47 AM
I've never heard of a creatine-coffee issue. Creatine is produced naturally by your body.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/12/09, 10:55 AM
I have herd caffine adversly affects creatine.
I use reguallar creatine, with gatoraid mixed together.( basicly what cell tech is)
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The following, has not be approved by the FDA or FT, it was not meant to diagnose,treat,or prevent any diease(s) Please consult a moderator or doctor before using any of the suggestions or comments.
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2004/12/09, 12:25 PM
Yes, caffine can adversely affect creatine. Remember, creatine is a cell volumizer, and caffine is a diruretic. They use the same receptors. Separate your caffine from your creatine. Caffine will bind to the receptors, inhibiting creatine.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/09, 12:40 PM
K, never thought about it before. i have a cup of coffee in the AM and creatine around 6 PM so I guess the effect is minimal.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/12/09, 12:42 PM
This is fine...bottom line, separate them by at least an hour. You are fine Charlie.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/09, 01:08 PM
Ron, You know you're worth your weight in gold.:cool:
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/12/12, 01:32 AM
i used to use creatine. haven't touched it in months but its still in my system. any excessive drinking i do pumps my muscles up. i warn that its hard to get rid the body of. and if you don't constantly drink when you do take it, it damages the kidneys- so i've heard. never was dumb enough to try.
anyways, creatine is just a false security. you do pump up but its not muscle. just water. you do get stronger and bigger but you have to constantly pee.
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I cut down trees
I eat my lunch
I go to the la-va-tree
On Wednesdays I go shopping,
and have buttered scones for tea.
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2004/12/12, 11:15 AM
I doubt this very much that it is still in your system.
And, show me some facts/studies/anything to back up kidney problems. There is not one documented case of creatine causing any such problems. In fact, creatine is one of the most researched supplements in history.
Please refrain from making such outlandish statements, this is where this silly type "conventional wisdom" starts, from people who don't know and hear things and repeat them with no knowlege of the subject.
Lets see, from your own words, you do get stronger and bigger...hhhmmm, seems to me that would be the reason one uses it. But you have to pee....if you are drinking good amounts of water, you have to pee anyway.
Sorry, I don't mean to rag on you but I get so sick of hearing morons come on and say this stupid stuff with nothing to back it up.:angry:(because there is nothing to back it up).
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Quoting from logger:
i used to use creatine. haven't touched it in months but its still in my system. any excessive drinking i do pumps my muscles up. i warn that its hard to get rid the body of. and if you don't constantly drink when you do take it, it damages the kidneys- so i've heard. never was dumb enough to try.
anyways, creatine is just a false security. you do pump up but its not muscle. just water. you do get stronger and bigger but you have to constantly pee.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/12, 12:54 PM
Well, it's been a week and I started a new brand of creatine made by optimum nutrition. I like the way it dissolves better that trac. I did the loading phase, but maybe I made the mistake of having a cup or so of coffee after the morning dosage of creatine. The rest of the loading day I mostly drank water. Now I'm just taking the maintance level and i'll keep tarck of what happens and let you know.
bb1fit, I read your advice and considered CEE(creatine ethyl ester). But i'm a little concerned of trying something so new. I would rather wait a while and see if aditional research is done on it.
question: I know we've been discussing this, but did I mess anything up by having the coffee?
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2004/12/12, 12:58 PM
From what i've gathered in this discussion, you may have offset the action of the creatine with coffee but only for the morning and not in the long run.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/12/12, 12:59 PM
You will be fine, just try to separate your creatine/caffine, and take in a decent amount of water.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/12, 04:10 PM
sorry bb1fit, this is just stuff i've heard from friends of mine. i got the "kidney problem" from them. i did research many sites and "kidney problems" never came up. but when i have first hand experiences from friends i am going to believe them.
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I cut down trees
I eat my lunch
I go to the la-va-tree
On Wednesdays I go shopping,
and have buttered scones for tea.
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2004/12/12, 06:33 PM
Your friends kidney problems are not from creatine. How old are they, what is their experience? It is easy to "blame" something for your problems when you don't really know, especially when you "heard it on the internet" or from some fool who doesn't have a clue who heard it from someone else.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/12, 06:36 PM
By the way, this is your statement..." used to use creatine. haven't touched it in months but its still in my system. any excessive drinking i do pumps my muscles up. i warn that its hard to get rid the body of. and if you don't constantly drink when you do take it, it damages the kidneys- so i've heard. never was dumb enough to try".
So, did you try it or not? And if what you say is true, you could save many folks alot of work. Simply do some creatine, the drink water every day! Voila', pumped muscles!!:big_smile:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/19, 08:00 PM
the statement "if you don't constantly drink when you do take it, it damages the kidneys...never was dumb enough to try..." states that i'm dumb enough to stop drinking a lot of liquids to see if what i heard was true or not.
what's your problem anyways? i just stated my opinion. no need to bash it, just say "hey, here is real info to set you straight from a reliable source." that's all i ask.
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I cut down trees
I eat my lunch
I go to the la-va-tree
On Wednesdays I go shopping,
and have buttered scones for tea.
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2004/12/19, 08:16 PM
Please do not make statments that have not been researched. Logger - I'm sure you are trying to be helpful, but your statements are unfounded and untrue. I'm so glad someone like BB1 is here to set the recored straight. It is not bad to state an opinion, but stating an opinion as thought were were truth can lead to confusion if you are not careful. BB1 is just calling you out and correcting and error which is his job as moderator
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2004/12/19, 08:53 PM
IF you heard bad stuff about creatine why did you take it?
IN highschool, I heard many miss conceptions about creatine, everyone looked at is a steriods basicly. If you took it long enough your balls would shrink up, damage kidneys......all of it was rummers. I read about it and researched it myself, and saw no adverse side effects as long as I didn't take to much and get deheria.
Giving your opinion is fine, I give mine off about alot of "supplements" however what I tell is my opinon about the product........I don't say " don't take cell tech , the creatine stays in your system long, and its hard to get rid of, and can hurt your kineys"
I tell the person, "cell tech is very expensive, and did lil for me, and that gatoraid mixed with regular creatine is basicly same thing, and cheaper, an done can control the suger intake better"
Fact is your gonna ALWAYS have creatin in your body, its alwasy in there, you get it from meat.
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The following, has not be approved by the FDA or FT, it was not meant to diagnose,treat,or prevent any diease(s) Please consult a moderator or doctor before using any of the suggestions or comments.
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2004/12/19, 10:29 PM
My problem is there is not one recorded case of kidney problems with creatine, but yet you come on here and state you know 3 of them!! Just making the point, as fdsk said, that that is how "conventional wisdom" gets started and spread. People read that stuff, that don't know the facts, and the next thing you know they are saying they know for a fact because they read it on the internet that creatine is bad, etc. I try to deter this kind misconception from starting for folks who are trying to really learn and better themselves.
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Quoting from logger:
the statement "if you don't constantly drink when you do take it, it damages the kidneys...never was dumb enough to try..." states that i'm dumb enough to stop drinking a lot of liquids to see if what i heard was true or not.
what's your problem anyways? i just stated my opinion. no need to bash it, just say "hey, here is real info to set you straight from a reliable source." that's all i ask.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/12/20, 06:33 AM
never take creatine with caffeine....it negates creatine's effects....so it's useless....if you always took it with caffeine then that's probably why it didn't work....soda, tea, coffee, supplements with caffeine, etc.. have at least hour between two
also using more sugar with creatine may help creatine absorption...
Creatine usage has also never been proven to damage 'healthy kidneys'...however those with kidney problems could worsen their condition...so get checked out if you're unsure...
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2005/01/18, 04:39 PM
I can't believe people still hang on to outdated beliefs about creatine..... A healthy person could probably consume around a gram of creatine a day through diet alone....I forget 1 g is out of 2.2 lb of meat? I am guessing some days I eat over a gram.....recently I even read that creatine is safe to take consistantly with no need to cycle off...I take 5 g every other day with apple juice for 2 years now...
but all it takes is 1 person at a time to change these outdated views...so next time someone who reads this can say...'well I read online that creatine is not bad for kidneys' and force other people to perhaps research the subject better...I mean we can only hope
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2005/01/18, 05:51 PM
Guo et al. (2003) suggests that oxidization of creatine readily causes the conversion to creatinine. Ganguly (2003) dissolved creatine effervescent powders in deionized water and stored them at room temperature and in a refrigerator over a period of several weeks. Creatine concentration was determined using high-performance liquid chromatography. Intrinsic dissolution and saturated solubility of creatine, creatine monohydrate, and di-creatine citrate in water were determined and compared. Crystal growth was detected only in the refrigerated samples on the seventh day of storage. Ninety percent creatine degradation was observed within weeks. However, at refrigerated condition this degradation was 80% within the same time period.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/01/18, 01:20 PM
creatine _can_ damage your kidneys with lazy/stupid people. creatine biodegrades to creatinine if left mixed for a long time (a few hours), as liquid form creatine is very unstable. kidney damage is possible in the loading phase if you don't get enough water (3.8L/1gallon per day). nothing that would actually mess up your kidneys bad enuff tho. the worst that could happen is kidney stones from dehydration... simple enuff. DRINK ENUFF WATER. i also hear arginine helps creatine by increasing blood nitrogen levels ;)
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2005/01/18, 01:44 PM
Farquhar(2002) stated, "despite relatively few isolated reports of renal dysfunction in persons taking creatine, the studies completed to date suggest that in normal healthy individuals the kidneys are able to excrete creatine and its end product, creatinine, in a manner that does not adversely affect renal function.
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Quoting from merderah:
creatine _can_ damage your kidneys
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/01/18, 03:44 PM
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Quoting from merderah:
creatine _can_ damage your kidneys with lazy/stupid people. creatine biodegrades to creatinine if left mixed for a long time (a few hours), as liquid form creatine is very unstable. kidney damage is possible in the loading phase if you don't get enough water (3.8L/1gallon per day). nothing that would actually mess up your kidneys bad enuff tho. the worst that could happen is kidney stones from dehydration... simple enuff. DRINK ENUFF WATER. i also hear arginine helps creatine by increasing blood nitrogen levels ;)
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That is some seriuous mis-information you are giving, although creatine is not the most stable form, it is stable in liquids across the ph spectrum for many hours at elevated temperature, the breakdown product is creatinine, which happens when creatine which is a straight chain cyclizes and expels a water molecule, when cyclized the creatinine is an extremely stable molecule !!!!
this is not my opinion, its simple organic chemistry and pharmacokinetics !!!
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2005/01/21, 01:39 PM
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Quoting from bb1fit:
Guo et al. (2003) suggests that oxidization of creatine readily causes the conversion to creatinine. Ganguly (2003) dissolved creatine effervescent powders in deionized water and stored them at room temperature and in a refrigerator over a period of several weeks. Creatine concentration was determined using high-performance liquid chromatography. Intrinsic dissolution and saturated solubility of creatine, creatine monohydrate, and di-creatine citrate in water were determined and compared. Crystal growth was detected only in the refrigerated samples on the seventh day of storage. Ninety percent creatine degradation was observed within weeks. However, at refrigerated condition this degradation was 80% within the same time period.
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well lets examine what you are saying, the first stament is oxidation of cratine, oxidation ids the gain of electrons, if you oxidize cratine, it of course breaks down to creatinine, oxidation is degradation of creatine to creatinine, the question here is how easily is creatine oxidized ! ....the second part is the stability of creatine in deionized water for several weeks, yes the product does break down after several weeks, but it is stable for 48 hours at increased temp ( 40-60 C ) across the ph spectrum, there is some breakdown but less than 20% and this is verified on HPLC and GC/MS and NMR...i ran these tests myself !!!
I make drugs on aevery day basis for use in animal and human models, not only do i have to understand the drug's mechanism of action, i need to know the drug's stability in human plasma, stability at 7.4, the breakdown products or the fragmentation pattern and the toxicity of these fragments, believe me the FDA is very strict !
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2005/01/21, 07:00 PM
First off, I am not saying this. This is directly from a study done. I personally am not a chemist. If you are smarter than these guys, so be it. :big_smile:
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Quoting from puresurfr2:
well lets examine what you are saying,
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2005/01/24, 01:46 PM
Sorry im not trying to dispute other scientist's findings, im only citing my own research, which i am qualified to do, i am a senior chemist in cancer research, so sports supplement is a bit outside my realm, but chemical stability is a issue that i am familiar with and i am familiar with the FDA guidelines as well !
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2005/01/25, 12:31 PM
Terminator......where does it say i am disputing other scientist's findings.....what is your point.....and popular tests does not always mean the best.......besides most if not all of the supplement companies do not comply with FDA regulations, EAS for one claims their products are 99% HPLC pure but at what wavelength are they testing at ???? they definitely are not pure at 254nm and 218nm....
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2005/01/26, 10:02 PM
wow this has been very informative...powersurf could you pls explain the wavelength concept you mentioned and how it relates to supplement purity? (I am very ignorent in this area....lol)
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2005/01/26, 10:03 PM
ignorant*....(and can't type worth ....)
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