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2007/06/06, 08:02 AM
OK, this place has been a bit on the dead side and well some of us a bit cranky(read-me). SO I wanted to start a real discussion NOT A BITCH SESSION, OR FLAME WAR!
I was at the Y and there were some kids (really about 16-18 not sure) doing squats. They had 135 on the bar. Now they weighed about 150-180. Dam if they were doing 1/2-1/4 squats. I watched them do a few sets adding weight and the depth got less and less. I said NOTHING. Not my place. However it got me thinking. How is it that so many people both men and women fail to do it prperly?
I mean SOMEONE had to show them how to do it. I have a hard time believeing that ALL OF them are not aware that deeper is better. I know in this case it was a training/ego thing......but what are your thoughts.....I also saw some girls young highschool aged doing squats on the smith machine and hardly bending the knees....what is it about this movement that causes such variations?
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Curl Jockeys, get outta the squat rack!
I wish everyone would get a partial amnesia and never use 'tone' ever again. (thanks Menance)
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2007/06/06, 08:32 AM
I think every single one of them knows how low they are supposed to go, but then they convince themselves that they are going to "parallel". When I first started squatting at age 12, The high school guys put the safety barts way up and just said you had to touch the bar to them and then go back up. So when I started, I was almost doing good monings, bouncing the bar off the safety bars. But then when I was 14, my track coach showed me how to do it properly. I had to drop from doing sets of 225 to 135, but I swallowed my pride and did it. That's what most people lack is the ability to swallow there pride and just use less weight, since they "know" they can really do more.
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2007/06/06, 08:42 AM
See, I disagree. When I first started working out in high school we didn't do much as far as legs go (we were your usual bench and curl monkeys). I was never taught how to squat properly and never observed anyone doing it properly, mainly because at the time I didn't care.
When I started college I began working out with my roommate, an amateur bodybuilder. On our first leg day he damn near laughed me out of the gym with "what the hell was that" and "my mom can squat better than you" type quotes. Anyway he taught me proper form and we worked to get my squat up to a decent number.
Anyway to my point. If I hadn't started working out with him, would others have said something to me at the gym? Most folks keep to themselves and don't correct you. I didn't know any better so I wasn't aware I was doing it wrong. I'm sure at some point I would have observed others and corrected myself, but I got there sooner due to the help.
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2007/06/06, 08:43 AM
One other quick point: At least the kids were actually attempting to do squats in the squat cage, rather than curling the bar.
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2007/06/06, 08:49 AM
I agree and I am not dissing them to that point. My main question is where is this all starting?
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Curl Jockeys, get outta the squat rack!
I wish everyone would get a partial amnesia and never use 'tone' ever again. (thanks Menance)
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2007/06/06, 08:51 AM
With the same guys that showed me how to do it the wrong way. Our football coach never corrected them, so those of them that didn't run track weren't told by a coach how to do it. I guess I just think that at some point, you'd see people doing it the right way, and realize that you're not doing it close to the same way...
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2007/06/06, 09:10 AM
Yes I agree with that. But I when i started read everything I could on this stuff
my form was what I worked on I am wondering if part of it is "monkey see, Monkey do" type of thing
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Curl Jockeys, get outta the squat rack!
I wish everyone would get a partial amnesia and never use 'tone' ever again. (thanks Menance)
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2007/06/06, 09:24 AM
I bet that it is not just their squat that sucks. I bet that they perform most of their exercises wrong. I can see at least three problems.
1) Most people I see squatting do it wrong, so they might actually think that they are doing it right based on what most people are doing.
2) They are misinformed and think that going deep is bad for you.
3) Ego
3)
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Light bulb shaped people are easy to push over!
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2007/06/06, 09:58 AM
My opinion is that they can do more weight by doing a 1/4 squat then they can say "I squatted xxx amt of weight". I think Pemdas #3 is the main reason
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2007/06/06, 10:02 AM
See that is what i thought and heard from these guys last night....they were so happy to hit 205 for reps not even thinking that they did not actually do a single rep.
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Curl Jockeys, get outta the squat rack!
I wish everyone would get a partial amnesia and never use 'tone' ever again. (thanks Menance)
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2007/06/06, 11:29 AM
I can account that the PT's at our fitness facility always instruct people never to let their knee go past their foot, not sure if I am explaining it right. But that is one of the biggest reasons only partial squats are performed. It seems to me that maybe they are showing people to go forward in a squat rather than straight down.
yo no se...:surprised:
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Bettia
You Get What You Train For!
- Unknown
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2007/06/06, 03:44 PM
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Quoting from ravenbeauty:
I can account that the PT's at our fitness facility always instruct people never to let their knee go past their foot, not sure if I am explaining it right. But that is one of the biggest reasons only partial squats are performed. It seems to me that maybe they are showing people to go forward in a squat rather than straight down.
yo no se...:surprised:
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I fail to understand how trying to keep your knees behind your toes would make you lean forward...but think i understand what you were getting at.
If I bent at the knees first and didn't sit back, I know that I would have a lot of trouble getting depth for two reasons.
1) At some point my knees can't move forward anymore.
2) My center of gravity would be way to far forward.
As a result, I can't go down because my knees can't move any more forward and I can't lean back or I will fall over.
The most common tip on the squat that I hear is to sit back. While I think that this is true for the most part, it is not the whole story. What people really need teach is to sit between your legs and in order to do that you have to move your butt back a little.
I think it would be more beneficial to focus on getting new squaters to spread their knees. If they can learn this then sitting between your legs almost happens by default.
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2007/06/06, 03:50 PM
I agree that form is the problem and lack of correct role models is also a issue. But you would think that you would want to get as much info as possible?
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Curl Jockeys, get outta the squat rack!
I wish everyone would get a partial amnesia and never use 'tone' ever again. (thanks Menance)
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2007/06/06, 04:55 PM
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
I agree that form is the problem and lack of correct role models is also a issue. But you would think that you would want to get as much info as possible?
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You would think that curls would stay out of the squat rack, but while you actually think, most people don't.
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2007/06/06, 06:25 PM
true. I just can not believe after so many years that so many are so bad at it
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Curl Jockeys, get outta the squat rack!
I wish everyone would get a partial amnesia and never use 'tone' ever again. (thanks Menance)
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2007/06/06, 07:28 PM
Honestly, I'm starting to think surprisingly few people at all levels of training are actually competent. I spoke with a friend the other day that plays football at a large division 1 school and he said that he doesn't squat at all, and when he benches he does it in a smith machine. If you ever look at NFL player workouts when they post them in Sports Illustrated, a lot of times they're not a lot better. If people who's income depends on training correctly still do not always have correct information, imagine how bad it is for high school kids.
Another part of it is marketing. People equate being strong, to being big, to having big arms and big pecs. Companies that sell equipment and supplements for body building spend a lot of money convincing people about how to work out and what to focus on. These are the muscles everyone can see, and these are the muscles most people, young kids especially, look at to tell if someone is strong. Most people don't even do squats, and the ones that do often start off with incorrect form. Especially if you're still growing, this can cause knee pain, which turns people off the the exercise all together.
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2007/06/08, 12:00 AM
I think part of it stems from people making excuses. Your average guy in the gym is a total bitch. Now before someone starts crying about how hard they work in the gym, understand that this is just a generalization.
I work in a weight room, as well as train in one. I have the good fortune of training a good deal of our athletes at RIT. Bottom line... I spend WAY too much time in a weight room.
I've asked people this question before. The most common answer is "I don't want to hurt my knees". Next most common is "I can't". After that comes "I feel it better when I do this" (people actually think they are training their legs this way)
Now some people don't know any better. HOWEVER these are the minority, and I can generally pick these people out easily just by watching them (I spend too much time in the weight room).
Ask Pemdas, I have NEVER refused to help teach someone to squat/bench/etc properly. I will take time out of my life to see to someone elses advancement. This doesn't make me a good person (I've got a lot of work to do), but I see to it that ANYONE THAT WANTS TO LEARN has the oppurtunity.
So... I'm not fully convinced that most people DON'T know they are doing.
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Mortal by birth.
Strongman by the grace of god.
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/06/08, 09:02 AM
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Quoting from wrestler125:
I think part of it stems from people making excuses. Your average guy in the gym is a total bitch. Now before someone starts crying about how hard they work in the gym, understand that this is just a generalization.
I work in a weight room, as well as train in one. I have the good fortune of training a good deal of our athletes at RIT. Bottom line... I spend WAY too much time in a weight room.
I've asked people this question before. The most common answer is "I don't want to hurt my knees". Next most common is "I can't". After that comes "I feel it better when I do this" (people actually think they are training their legs this way)
Now some people don't know any better. HOWEVER these are the minority, and I can generally pick these people out easily just by watching them (I spend too much time in the weight room).
Ask Pemdas, I have NEVER refused to help teach someone to squat/bench/etc properly. I will take time out of my life to see to someone elses advancement. This doesn't make me a good person (I've got a lot of work to do), but I see to it that ANYONE THAT WANTS TO LEARN has the oppurtunity.
So... I'm not fully convinced that most people DON'T know they are doing.
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Hahaha, "I feel it better when I do this". I didn't know squatting was supposed to feel good. I always walk in thinking, "How can I murder my legs today".
"I can't" because you aren't doing it right. To some extent I agree with this, but flexibility could be an issue. I know Steve is familiar with this. The problem is that they don't do anything to fix it.
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2007/06/09, 09:27 PM
i for one need to read everything. Im only 15 and workout at home but thru videos discussion and reading and just that feel i guess i know im spot on. Before i started squatting id heard all the hype about the growth but id heard all the negatives so i read info on them of respectable sights. Everywhere i read it was always theres no such thing as a dangerous excercise just dangerous form but i new for me to get the most out of weights id need to be squatting so i read and read and read. But then i realised not everyone wants to do that. People can just be told what to do in the weight room and they'll do it. I have a few mates from school that were asking me to teach them to squat because they had tried so i asked them to squat and straight away bang bent at the knees untill they were pretty much doing sitting calf raises lol. Back was rounded terribly and knees were knocking even with taking a wider stance. Like thats just shit. Thats 5min of reading to get the info on that. Bend at the hips first
spread the floor sit back then down back neutral or arched:( every article going round has that but these kids were just to lazy to read it:angry: So theyd just go blindly and do there little calf raise knee bends and would think there doing fine:laugh: alot of people these days just arnt willing to research and thats where all this form comes from then the lazy friends will show there lazy friends how to squat and so on> yeh there may be alot of crap going round but if youre serious about working out you find these things out! just my little rant
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OBSESSION is a word the lazy use to describe the DEDICATED
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2007/06/10, 11:38 AM
i worked hard on my squats form i do parallel squats just because i do have a flexibility issue but have been working on it also but it makes me sick when people barely move 4-6 inches and grunt the whole way....gimmie a break, I have grown so confident in the gym I let people know and let them know its not right, also if you have a good training partner to back you up then the intellectually challenged are more apt to open up to the idea
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2007/06/10, 12:38 PM
Going back to my originaly post I agree with what you guys said. I think a more accurate description may be not that people don't know how to squat to parellel, but don't have a full understanding of why it's important.
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2007/06/10, 07:45 PM
From what I've seen in the past, most people especially in groups "copycat", I mean they see one guy with a lot of weight and only going around one half to one fourth of the way down. Then they begin doing the same thing. Then it becomes a group showing out more than being in the gym to better themselves. Don't get me wrong I think that some competition between friends can be what some of us need to push ourselves, but you've got to be there for yourself first.
I was lucky enough to start lifting with a true gym rat. Either you do it the right way or don't waste your time (or his). When it came to squats, he never threw on a lot of weight, but man he was overall one of the strongest guys I've ever been around. You dropped your squat down to just above where you can physically go no further (your ass basically just off the ground), then lift straight up sort of keeping your eyes fixed forward and up.
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2007/06/10, 08:45 PM
I read a good article on elite fitness about their are people who "train" and people who "workout." I agree ...
I think the people who workout are there to socialize chit chat( some talk isn't bad)..do some arms some chest thats about it. Teh do the latest "toning" workouts they see on tv or read in a flex or M&F
then those who train...those who are more well read...know what they are doing and why....they get in and get out.
I agre with steve...1/2 the people in the gym...are just "bitches"...there to talk and take up space.
I over heard a guy watching me squat...say to another guy who was doing soem calves..after I got done with my set...he laughed and said somthing to him..his workout is walking and standing on his feet all day.
I really really wanted to say...."yeah?and it shows too!"
But I didn't..I didn't want to me known as that "know it all guy" or asshole guy.
But gone are the days of friendly advice...
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\"The eight laws of learning are explanation, demonstration, imitation, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, and repetition\"
You have to learn to follow, before you can lead.
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2007/06/10, 09:49 PM
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Quoting from Pemdas:
"I can't" because you aren't doing it right. To some extent I agree with this, but flexibility could be an issue. I know Steve is familiar with this. The problem is that they don't do anything to fix it.
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Minority occurance, IMO. Flexibility is limited by the range of motion that your muscles will ALLOW you to have. Once your golgi reflex understands that you are not strong enough in a stretched position, it will not allow you to stretch any further.
When people add on hundreds of pounds MORE than they have any business squatting, their CNS will not let them flex that much. If someone can squat with their bodyweight on a box (ie sit on a toliet) then they can squat.
I am an exception, and a rare exception. Besides that, flexibility is not an EXCUSE. I had the head strength coach at RIT tell me most of his hockey players (Division I) did not squat to parallel because they couldn't. Well damnit, fix your athletes! You're telling me that getting them to this point wouldn't help make them less injury prone and perform better?!
Besides that, I never squatted high. I either took my 30 minutes to warm up and stretch to the point where I could squat, or I did lunges, step ups, etc.
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Mortal by birth.
Strongman by the grace of god.
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/06/26, 12:00 AM
In our gym they have pictures of a couple of our power lifters who often gold and silver in competetion. One even holds a state record. It is very obvious by looking at them squat in the pic that you gotta get down. I learned from watching them. I believe that Squats are just too dang tough for most folks (correct ones anyway). I worked long and hard on the leg press machine and hack squat machine to strengthen my legs so I could learn to squat. For me real squats require a lot more effort and are a lot tougher that even a lot of weight on a press machine.
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Only two defending forces have ever offered to die for You. Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. Both died for your Freedom!
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