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2005/05/23, 04:39 PM
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Quoting from deadonarrival:
planche pushup is one wiht feet off the ground correct? This is about as far from a bench press as you can get. You will never be able to go near a planche pushup with bench press training. You don't integrate the core and leg s into it.
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Ok, when did I say that bench press training carries over to doing a planche push up. Thats right, i didn't, i mearly stated an observation that that it may be the other way around, based on studies that have shown that gymnasts that have never bench pressed can often bench press 300+ pounds. to do a planche push up requires balance and muscular coordination not required in the bench press.
However, would you have an athlete that has never done gymnastic training work on progressions for a planche push up rather than bench pressing, no, because the bench press is an excellent exercise that doesnt take years to learn.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/05/23, 04:46 PM
And do you really think that one could get to doing a planche push up with a "cable press". I doubt it. I don't care if it does "train your core", or your midsection, or torso, or whatever you want to call it. I prefer to train my trunk seperately, and hit it from every angle. I train my obliques, rectus abdominis, lower back, and all the other muscles that connect my hips to my arms, with many different exercises, because in wrestling, as in other sports, trunk strength is extremely important. I can guarantee i wont get the same kind of strength from a cable press.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/05/23, 08:19 PM
gatormade
Bench Pressing may or may not be important for upper body strength. It depends who's doing it. You can tell that to a gymnist. You almost made my point with "to do a planche push up requires balance and muscular coordination not required in the bench press." Would you agree that blocking a player requires balance and coordination? How about a bench press? I'm all for heavy weighted crunches - yes on the swiss ball. This is using your abdominals as prime movers not stabilizers. Pushups, cable press', etc work core stabilizers. You can isolate all the movements, but for them to function properly together you need to train them that way too. You should do both.
7707
Obviously the swiss ball has it's limits, but so does the bench. I only got upto pressing 50kg's DB's in each hand on the ball for 8 reps. A friend of mine uses 60kg dumbbells. I consider him strong. I use the incline and decline bench press, but it gets cycled with the swiss ball. No need to take this so personally. Its a discussion board and were discussing. I take all of whats said into account. I may be able to learn off you and you may be alboe to take something from me. Have an open mind.
wrestler125
I dont think the cable press is going to make me capable of the planche push up. It may help a little though, where as the bench help not at all. Plus the gymnists have super skinny legs - that would help.
Don't get me wrong, I'm into the traditional lifts. Deadlifts, cleans, military press, squats, bench press. But I'm no longer convinced that the bench press equals strength in all cases. I guess it depends on how you measure it.
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2005/05/23, 10:07 PM
nice name...very appropriate...
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2005/05/24, 08:38 AM
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Quoting from deadonarrival:
You almost made my point with "to do a planche push up requires balance and muscular coordination not required in the bench press."
Gatormade -->When did I say what you have in quotations?
gatormade
Bench Pressing may or may not be important for upper body strength. It depends who's doing it. You can tell that to a gymnist. Would you agree that blocking a player requires balance and coordination? How about a bench press? I'm all for heavy weighted crunches - yes on the swiss ball. This is using your abdominals as prime movers not stabilizers. Pushups, cable press', etc work core stabilizers. You can isolate all the movements, but for them to function properly together you need to train them that way too. You should do both.
MY Response
My question to you DOA is when did I say you shouldn't do both? Benching is not an Isolation movement. I believe in the physioball, dynadisc, airex pad, bosu ball, cable press... JUST not as the first exercise in the workout. I have said this prior in this thread and I get the feeling you have not read the entire thread. I like doing DB Bench on a physioball. I am close to 500lbs on my bench without a shirt and I use DB physioball bench to develop my bench. The point I am arguing is that benching is important for most athletes and that the "core" movements should be done after. You need to be more fresh to develop strength and power than you do to develop balance and "core" Strength.
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2005/05/24, 09:12 AM
I thought you said it..no matter.
I never said you didnt say do both. I did read the thread. I know you are into about 300 variations of press. Thats great.
My point was bench press strength does not equal on the field strenght in the situation where you have to stabilize under you own base of support. Bench pressing gives you a good base to start with, and I'd love to be able to bench press 500lbs, but how does that help anything other than bench pressing?
In reality it doesnt unless you are backed up against a wall or lying on your back. I believe this to be true, I've heard Paul Chek discuss this on a few occasions and I'm convinced. Take someone who does 500lbs bench press and little else for pressing exercises. Then have them stand on one leg and try and push them off balance. All their bench pressing might will equal nothing when the rest of them cant stabilize. So why would bench press be so important?
I'd really like so see some studies on this to confirm. It just makes sense to me. You can't isolate different parts of the body and expet them to work together as a whole. They need to be trained this way. Many agree and many more probably disagree.
I'll happily agree to disagree at this point.
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2005/05/24, 09:30 AM
I would like to see anyone regardless of there training stand on one leg and be able to resist being pushed over. And since when does the bench not work the different muscle groups? I am not at 500 but when i benched 325 I can tell you every inch of my body went into that lift.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/05/24, 10:57 AM
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Quoting from deadonarrival:
I thought you said it..no matter.
I never said you didnt say do both. I did read the thread. I know you are into about 300 variations of press. Thats great.
My point was bench press strength does not equal on the field strenght in the situation where you have to stabilize under you own base of support. Bench pressing gives you a good base to start with, and I'd love to be able to bench press 500lbs, but how does that help anything other than bench pressing?
In reality it doesnt unless you are backed up against a wall or lying on your back. I believe this to be true, I've heard Paul Chek discuss this on a few occasions and I'm convinced. Take someone who does 500lbs bench press and little else for pressing exercises. Then have them stand on one leg and try and push them off balance. All their bench pressing might will equal nothing when the rest of them cant stabilize. So why would bench press be so important?
I'd really like so see some studies on this to confirm. It just makes sense to me. You can't isolate different parts of the body and expet them to work together as a whole. They need to be trained this way. Many agree and many more probably disagree.
I'll happily agree to disagree at this point.
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You can isolate different parts of the body. It is called part practice. It is one of the principles in motor development. Pitchers, quarterbacks, outside hitters, etc.. all participate in part practice when learning their movement skills. Then they follow it up with whole practice and their whole movement is better because of the part practice. Your body transfers the part practice into whole movement naturally. Weight lifting is the same. I also agree that benching isn't everything and I have known football players with great benches and were awful on the field. Take two athletes of the same skill and put them up against each other. The stronger one will win.
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2005/05/24, 10:58 AM
Hey DOA, how about putting up a profile?
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2005/05/24, 02:18 PM
Yeah, how bout seeing your stats, who you have trained, who have you studied under???
And mutt, ill happily take your 1 leg challenge. In freestyle and folkstyle wrestling, I spend a very good amount of time on one leg with someone trying to take me down, and I've become fairly adapt at it.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/05/24, 07:46 PM
I studied a lot of Paul Cheks work. I've read most of Charles Poliquin's stuff too. I've read many books nad tried many training methods - Pete Sisco & John Little(static contraction & Power Factor), Stuart McRoberts(Brawn), Jerry Telle, Ian King plus many others - I try to learn something new every day.
I taking the Chek appraoch on this one.
I'm not a strength coach, but I currently train an elite volley ball player, a special operations cop, a competitive female surfer and worked with an Olympic Judo competitor.
The fact is even standing on 2 legs a seasoned bench presser isn't able to demonstrate much force.
I think I basically said that you isolate muscle first, but you must incoroprate the whole body into the movement to be able to use it in a functional movement pattern.
So the bench lays the foundations, but super heavy press' doesn't really mean much in the real world.
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2005/05/24, 08:09 PM
Kit Lachlan once said to me "If you can't stabilize your strength, you don't own it"
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2005/05/24, 08:18 PM
So, what you are saying is that benching doesn't improve force production, rate of force development, and decrease fatigue in upper body movements in say an outside hitter. I disagree with you. I have research to back up what I say. Our one outside hitter went from hitting a ball 42mph to 55 mph in the course of a year. That was a combination of better technique and increased ability to produce force. Benching does not isolate muscle. It is an exercise that trains multiple muscles over multiple joints. If an athlete is properly trained at the trunk then the bench press will most definitely transfer over when they are on two feet. Their trunk serves as an anchor for upper body movement. This is my arguement. I have seen it and felt it. I have studied the same people you have studied. I have also studied from Louie Simmons, Jimmy Radcliffe, Tudor Bompa, Harvey Newton, Donald Chu, Peter Twist, Al Vermeil and many others. I have also worked with over 700 people in the last 7 years (9 total Olympians, Elite swimmers, volleyball players, track & field athletes, and football players). Paul Chek has some great ideas but in no way is he the only answer out there. My philosophy has developed through the study and application of all of these people previously mentioned and not mentioned. From what I have seen and done I firmly believe bench pressing belongs in a training plan. Do I think it should be the main focus? No. Overall human development should be the focus. Too much stability work can cause tendonitis from overuse just like to many squats can. I like to use Olympic lifts, powerlifting exercises, functional training exercises, bodybuilding exercises and any other I deem fit and appropriate for a given exercise. I don't let myself get corned in to a box. You say a super heavy press doesn't mean much in the real world. I disagree. Getting stronger also builds confidence in an athlete and I think that is the most important thing I do with my athletes. Confidence is EVERYTHING in the real world as you like to put it. I guess you are also saying that foundations are not important. (since benching lays the foundation and benching doesn't mean anything in the real world). That foundation of which you are refering to must always be made better every year. You don't just train foundation one time and then let it go. You must constantly make the foundation better so the athlete can get better. I think Jim Wendler put it best:
Strength is not important: This is something that Dave Tate has brought up time and time again and I’m not afraid to take his idea and run with it. When I first started to lift weights I was a thin and slow kid in 8th grade. I was an above average athlete, but not very fast. After lifting for 6 months (squatting, benching and deadlifting) track season came around and I had now become the fastest kid in the school. I remember thinking that the reason I was so much faster than everyone was because I was stronger. Now I am not a genius, but how the hell could a 13 year kid with no fancy degrees figure this out but it remains a mystery to some of the strength coaches? Of course these coaches will argue that “we are not powerlifters, we are athletes.” No one ever argued that fact, but then why do you test in the bench and squat? They will counter that they have no need for a 600lbs bench press. They’re right! They don’t need one, but it sure would be nice to have every offensive lineman on a college team able to bench press 400lbs and squat 600lbs. Hell, wouldn’t it be nice if they could even all squat 400? Because I KNOW that most schools can’t even say that! And I’m talking about a parallel squat, not a ¼ squat piece of crap. Whenever I hear these kinds of statements it’s from a coach that has weak athletes. Just strive to make them stronger. Make the 200lbs squatter into a 315lbs squatter and you will be surprised at what will happen. Also, to those that believe and preach nothing but stability balls and balance boards. I bet you can teach me how to stand on a stability ball and wave a wand in a few hours. How long do you think it is going to take me to teach you how to squat over 900lbs? You know why no one likes to hear this? Because getting stronger takes hard work and effort.
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2005/05/24, 08:23 PM
No kidding. We all know that if you can't stabilize strength you can't use it.
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2005/05/24, 08:24 PM
And how about a thoroughly thought out argument from your brain and not Paul Chek's?
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2005/05/24, 08:42 PM
Benching doesn't strengthen my trunk or "core" as you put it. I don't use bench to develop my trunk. I use the bench to develop my upper body strength. I use TRUNK or "core" exercises to do that.
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2005/05/24, 08:43 PM
"The fact is even standing on 2 legs a seasoned bench presser isn't able to demonstrate much force"
Where is your research on this?
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2005/05/24, 08:45 PM
"The fact is even standing on 2 legs a seasoned bench presser isn't able to demonstrate much force"
I have research to dispute this claim. If you come visit me in Florida I will honest to god show it to you. I am not joking. This is the same offer I gave Nelly. Come down and see what we do and I would bet money I could change your perspective a little bit.
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2005/05/25, 07:28 AM
You dont have to convince me of the benefits of squats. I do squats and deadlifts. I've had some knee injuries so it's not that easy, but I push on.
You say you did squats, press' deadlifts and were faster as an athlete. Thats great, but what does that have to do with functional application of a bench press? I totally agree with strength training for sports performance. Squats can benefit every single person on the planet.
I have thought this out but I havent conducted as much research as Chek. I dont take everything he says to the gym. I made an educated decision. I continue to read and learn more.
To prove a direct increase in performance due to an increase in bench pressing would take a university study. Placebo effect does not qualify.
I'm open to the research if you have it. I love to see things proven to me and I dont mind being proven wrong. The bench presser pushing test was something I read in Paul Cheks movement that matters book and watched demonstrate in core conditioning videos. I haven't seen the test that porves this to be wrong. However you may have to come to Melbourne Australia to show me.
I don't see how a bench press improves a hitting power considering the force is generated through the rotation of the hips and trunk. Technique would be the reason for this improvment. Practice some explosive rotational movements to increase hitting or pitching power.
Lets look at the bench press machine. Do you see this as a useful exercise? To my understanding some football teams have done away with the olympic bars and now train HIT.
Point me in the direction of the information that supports your argument and I'll look at it.
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2005/05/25, 08:49 AM
First of all, I never use a bench press machine and they way I train the bench is not HIT. Rotational movements are important for outside hitters and pitchers but they still need good upperbody strength. And I would need a good study to prove there isn't an increase in performance using bench.
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2005/05/25, 09:13 AM
This is where you are missing the point. Bench, heavy bench pressing not only works the chest but literally every other point on your body. It is like squats, deadlifts a completely compound movement. That is why doit among the others develops power.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/05/25, 09:54 PM
Alright I did not read all of the posts, I actually only got to the 3rd, so it might have been answered (more than likely) but I'll put in my opinion. I tried the Bigger Faster Stronger program for football as well and I lost weight, I don't think it's a very good program. The best one I think for football is Power Matrix. It will only help you gain for so long I have noticed.. I did it about a year ago or something, and it quit working for me after I went from 185lb bench to 235lb bench, I think it took about 7 weeks. So still if you only have 8 weeks, then that was only 50lbs in 2 months, but I think 75lbs in 2 months would be very hard to accomplish. Again I'm not sure if this has already been said, I didn't read all the posts, so if it was sorry. :) Bye.
-Derek
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2005/05/25, 11:33 PM
gator
I never said "you" use HIT or machines. I just wanted your thoughts on that style of training.
7707
I get the point fine. Squats and deadlifts are much different than bench press. Bench is supported the others are not. Bench doesnt work every muscle on your body like squats or deads. What i mean by that is you dont even need legs or abs to perform the exercise.
Yes it's a compound exercise, but so is leg press and seated machine bench press. Neither require much work for postural muscles. Neither do much for real world strength. The bench press is just one up from a machine press and one down from an unsupported press.
I'm not familiar with the bigger faster stronger program....
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2005/05/26, 03:28 AM
If you do heavy powerlifting style bench press....then everything you said about bench press is untrue DOA.....you target pretty much every single muscle either directly or as a stabilizer.....it's a good way to measure upper body strength....i still think some exercises are a bit better...standing overhead military press is probably a better measure but nevertheless...
Bench press is ways off from a smith machine, and most definetely from a chest machine....I just have this feeling you're one of the people who never gave bench press much of a chance and continue to bench press 100 pounds with his feet in the air and and talk crap about it or just avoid it all together for no good reason....(if you're somehow bench pressing 500lb my apologies...)....
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2005/05/26, 03:56 AM
Are you talking about fully arched back bench pressing? Thats just a cheat method to bring your chest up to the bar and hit the pecs from a decline position.
I guess then you are using your whole body to do the movement, but it's like doing anything with poor form. Using the worng muscles to do the job.
I'm of the opinion that good form is done with good posture. I dont see a power bench as much use beyond exactly that.
I gave it a chance, but after some shoulder problems I decided to learn some alternatives. That lead me to read a lot on rehab, functional exercise and posture. I've opted for the swiss ball bench press as an alternative. I was pressing with 110lbs dumbells for 8 reps until last year. Now Im focused on swiss ball barbell press. Only this year did I start doing cable presses and standing rows. My best on the bench was 265lbs for 1 rep. Hopeless I know, but I aim to beat that on the ball this year.
I checked your profile. You are doing some very nice lifts.
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2005/05/26, 04:23 AM
Getting and keeping an arch takes the whole body to stabilize....including....calves, hamstrings, hips, core, butt, forearms....the exercise hits, chest, shoulders, and triceps to push weight....as well as biceps and back on eccentric portion....
When I see people doing heavy DBs on swiss ball...it makes me cringe.....there are better ways to work on one's balance, core, upper body, chest, etc... than to do that...as bad as when people hold their legs in the air while doing bench press....On big compound exercises, stability is vital...
Your 1 rep max doesn't tell me anything...I was just commenting on a phenomenon I have observed of people who are weak in the lift, trying to find an excuse to not do it...or half assing it and then blaming other factors for not progressing....or doing it wrong.....many players mess up their shoulders through poor form then blame the exercise...and I have seen plenty of this in the gyms I have been in....
Cable presses? I am sorry but that's as much of a waste of time as anything....
Also it annoys the hell out of me when people comment on how this or that exercise doesn't carry over from the gym to the field...well DUH.....obviously there won't be 100% carryover...I mean... to become great at a sports specific activity one has to do it....simple as that....weight lifting helps to train the whole body to create a strong foundation which helps one to train in a sports specific area and progress in it.....obviously pushing a bar on a bench doesn't have perfect carryover to the field...but if some1's bench press goes from 200 to 500lb....I am pretty sure he will be much stronger/effective on the field...as longas he is a skilled player.....and if he's not it will definitely help because less talented players can become great through hard work....
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2005/05/26, 07:02 AM
LOL shouldrs and triceps do little but stablize? Thanks you just clarified that you really know nothing about benching. And I fear that this post is at a end cause all we are doing is aruging around in a circle. So lets end this and move on ok? Thanks all.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/05/26, 07:21 AM
Ironically enough you still haven't filled out your profile nor stated any qualifications.....you can cite other famous persons all you like...but that doesn't make YOU qualified....
I have certifications AAAI PT and AAAI nutrition consultant...also CPR certified....but these are just small qualifications and I don't contend to be very knowledgeable in any one area in particular....majority of my knowledge is reading fitness related material from any source I can find and my own training....(this is why I enjoy reading gator's posts...he knows most of these things in depth)
You also quite clearly misunderstood what I said....I never claimed that any exercise carries over 100% to the field or a particular sport.....All I am saying is that bench press is a good compound exercise which I believe carries over better to the field by creating a solid upper body foundation allowing the athlete to start from a stronger point while training in a sports specific area....
Also you still have not explained your reasons for doing bench press on physio ball......there are better ways to do just about anything upper body related...
Cables generally limit the amount of weight used.....which limits strength/power gains....
Hope you're not suggesting that soreness is a reflection of how good an exercise is or how hard you worked out....
Also your last paragraph is the most ignorant thing you said so far....if you knew anything about the mechanics of powerlifting bench press you'd know that Triceps are the primary movers....chest/shoulders are distant second...
How does physio ball allow for 'good posture' vs a bench?
Also the olympic lifting term you're referring to is 'double knee bend' and it's still very much alive
http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/strength_and_conditioning/239/
I employ any technique which gets me stronger ....i am not a pure powerlifter...
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2005/05/26, 08:10 AM
You must have been bench with the elbow flared out to mess your shoulder up. Tucking the elbows in actually targets the triceps more and redecuces the amount of shoulder rotation. So, it probably was not a true power bench. Physioball DB bench has agrivated my past shoulder injuries from football. My butt stays on the bench I get nice arch and have no back pain from it. I don't think you really know what a true bench press looks like.
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2005/05/26, 08:15 AM
Here is one of my philosophies of training athletes:
* Identify 3-4 main exercises that are critical to an athlete in a given sport. Take those exercises and develop them. That means you are not going to train with them but rather find other exercises that build them.
For example:
An outside hitter in volleyball:
Clean
Jerk
Snatch
Squat
Incline Bench
Trunk
Rotator Cuff
From this list I am going to take each lift and write down as many exercises I can think of that will develop them. We will then cycle those developmental exercises for 6 weeks and then train the critical lifts for one week to see where we are at. We then do it again. A new 6 week cycle with different exercises and then a week of test. If anyone is interested in this more than let me know and I will start a new thread.
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2005/05/26, 08:44 AM
What level has this been?
"Weather I'm qualified or not is irrelevent. I work with plenty of instructors who know little more(maybe even less) than what they learnt getting their certificate in fitness. "
So in other words you're trying to say you don't know what you're talking about ...but yet you're still talking...that's the funniest thing you said yet...so because there are people masquerading as personal trainers with 'even less' qualifications than you...that means you're qualified to speak your mind?
Like I said you have no idea how to do a powerlifitng style bench press.....because the muscles you mentioned working for physio ball DB presses work for bench press....also I am not sure by what you mean extended range of motion? Dumbells inherently allow for greater ROM....barbell has same ROM for both physio ball and bench....unless you somehow figured a way to lower the bar through your chest on physio ball.....
so you do a variation of an arnold press for on a physio ball...great...you can do same thing on a bench...with the same full ROM....and with better stability...again you can train core/chest in much ebtter and more effective ways....
I am not upset about this at the least....It's just annoying when people say random things without backing things up....as gator mentioned it's on you to prove us wrong because you're going against the common line of thinking....I have only recently started doing flat bench press....My favorite exercises for chest are incline dumbell flyes, presses, and barbell presses.......
Also decline bench press activates most muscle fibers in the chest so it only makes sense to create the decline feel on flat bench press using arch in lower back...
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2005/05/26, 08:48 AM
Gator a new thread on the mentioned topic is a great idea...
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2005/05/26, 08:51 AM
"Also it annoys the hell out of me when people comment on how this or that exercise doesn't carry over from the gym to the field...well DUH.....obviously there won't be 100% carryover...I mean... to become great at a sports specific activity one has to do it....simple as that....weight lifting helps to train the whole body to create a strong foundation which helps one to train in a sports specific area and progress in it.....obviously pushing a bar on a bench doesn't have perfect carryover to the field...but if some1's bench press goes from 200 to 500lb....I am pretty sure he will be much stronger/effective on the field...as longas he is a skilled player.....and if he's not it will definitely help because less talented players can become great through hard work"
FINALLY!!! Someone gets it.
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2005/05/26, 08:53 AM
And how can you say powerlifting style bench is bad form??? A powerlifting bench press allows one to move the greatest amount of weight with the least amount of injury. How is that bad form. Powerlifters develop greater levels of strength to weight than almost any other athletes.
If its so wrong than why is it so effective????
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2005/05/26, 08:54 AM
gator
I injured my shoulder in a drunken state about 5 years ago. About 1.5 years ago my shoulder started causing me problems.
I'm not the first person to suggest arching the back in a press is potentially dangerous. I havent looked into it too much, but the arch is to bring the chest closer to the bar shortening the ROM. Whats functional about it?
When I assess and athlete or anyone else for that matter I look for the following needs:
agility
strength
speed
power
endurance
coordination
flexibility
balance
I took that from Tudor Bompa. Focus on their weeknesses.
Then I select exercises with what I believe to be of benefit.
My volleyball approach would be as follows:
Check the common tight muscles such as pec minor, calves and upper traps. Check for weaknesses such as external rotators of the shoulder and lower abs(which I'm sure you believe do not exist).
I use exercises such as squat push press, lateral lunges, reverse woodchops and cable rows when I get specific.
menace
thanks for the info on double knee bend. I don't know a great deal about it, but I am certain the hyper extended backs aren't a good idea.
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2005/05/26, 09:07 AM
menace
Are you serious? I'm trying to tell you I know nothing am I? I mean my qualifications show nothing of my knowledge. If you have trouble understanding simple shit like that why are you trying to understand the bench press issue? What random things have I not backed up? Ball greater range without comprimising shoulder joint due to the shape of the ball.
wrestler and menace
gator has some intelligent things to say, but you guys really show your level of maturity with some of your comments.
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2005/05/26, 06:42 PM
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Quoting from menace3000:
Cables generally limit the amount of weight used.....
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Why do you think that would be?
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2005/05/26, 08:16 PM
Cables make things easier.......pullys gicve a mechanical advantage. I have noticed some pulley machines I can do 60lbs on.......and other 120+......more pullies easier it is, thats just the way pullies work. Besides that when one works with pullies the weight is never over the body, or muscle(s) being worked. With a bench its you and gravity, no pullies, no mechincal advantage.
Biggest cable machine I ever seen was like 150lbs....but its still not "true " weight
because of the pully appratus. And yoru always standing 45degress or so from the cable tower/ machine.......if your sayingt he bench press doesn't carry over well......how the hell does a cable overhead press......with at least 2 to 3 pulies and standing at a 45 degree angle from the weight........carry over on the field? Also if your into sports one neds to train fast or explosovly to be good at any sport correct? With a cabel you can't go very fast.....atleast not my cabel machines....the plaets could hit the top, or the bottom plates...because the weight is in a fixed stack. Theres a top to it and a bottom.....as anyone knows who slams the plats down on top of one another. But with free weights, you can throw the bar throguh the rood if you that explsove. SO you have to be slow, and steady in a weight stack........and what sport besides maybe chess do you move slow in?
lets look at the bench.....
benchpress.....its nto fixed, it can go back, forward, side to side.....you have to control it.
cable machine......weight goes up and down in the rack.....pullies control the weight and the movemnet. Only thing you have to control, is the up and down part.
As for bench pressing on the ball.....do you knwo why its easier? and "feels" better.......the ball STOPS your elbows! Yes the ball conforms nicly to the spine, yes you may have to control your hips a lil bit to stay on it. However this "copnformity of the ball" also stops the shoulders from going all the way down, the ball stop the movement.......and if your nto careful the ball will give a lil "bounce" if your arms hti to hard... again making it easier.
However, if you slowly lower the bar or dbs , that puts alot of pressure on the shoulder.........but again,isn't sports abotu being explosoness? SO yu'd need to do the reps fast, if you do that the ball will kinda "bounce " again.......thus loosing what your trying to acomplish.
just a few questions i'm curious about?
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" The only true eye, is your minds eye"- plato
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2005/05/26, 08:47 PM
DOA what I said made perfect sense....reread what you said....it logically makes no sense....
"Weather I'm qualified or not is irrelevent. I work with plenty of instructors who know little more(maybe even less) than what they learnt getting their certificate in fitness. "
Translation: I am an average Joe Blow my qualifications are irrelvant but I have a right to speak my mind....
You're questioning my maturity because you can't argue a point of view? you haven't brought up a single original thought nor backed it up with anything....
And Andrew pointed out a very trye thig about cables...they are leveraged....there has to be a reason I can do 150 stack on one side of the crossover for tricep pressdowns for well over 20 reps...yet do the same exercise on the pulldown station for just a few reps.....
Also you're trying to huff and puff and bow out your chest proudly with 'your qualifications' but right before that you admitted that they don't much of anything...those certifications are worthless....unless u have a BA/BS+ to have a solid grasp of everything I wouldn't bring it up so proudly....
I am glad at least wrestler got what I was saying originally...because I thought I phrased it pretty clearly....
AGAIN if you gonna say some random claims then be ready to have it backed up by research.....BTW just to clarify....just because a famous lifter says somethign that does not constitute sound research....show me a good double blind research study that proved any one of your mentioned things.....so far you have proven ZERO...and have shown even the basic knowledge of the mechanics of the powerlifting style bench press....
so before you say anymore, why don't you think out your arguments a little better...and before you call anyone else immature, think about your own...
you have still haven't filled out your profile....it's very easy...doesn't take a scientist to do it...
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2005/05/26, 08:50 PM
HAVE NOT shown even the basic knowledge of the mechanics of the powerlifting style bench press....*
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2005/05/26, 08:57 PM
however DOQ before you get moody again at my post and call me immature or what ever... cable DO have their place......cables do because of the pullies allow constant tensions on the muscle(s) trained....however that is more a body building aspect to training not powerlifting and or sports related..... really think about it......a 10 ton crane can lift a 50 ton beam? why? pullies.......
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" The only true eye, is your minds eye"- plato
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2005/05/26, 09:55 PM
Message deleted by moderator due to unsuitable content for this board.
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2005/05/26, 10:03 PM
DOA all i have to say is you are sad, do not know what you are talking about and need to think before you type.
That said lets move on I asked nice, so now I am not asking I am telling.
ANY post after this point will be deleted.
Thanks
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/05/27, 02:33 AM
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2005/05/27, 02:48 AM
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2005/05/27, 06:09 AM
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2005/05/27, 07:12 AM
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2005/05/27, 07:47 AM
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2005/05/27, 08:06 AM
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2005/05/27, 10:50 AM
I left Gators last post cause it says it all.
I want to apologize to Meance and Big A for deleteing their posts as well as to Gator for the few of his I took off. Please as Gator said lets be done. NO MORE POSTING!
Please find another topic.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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