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2005/11/23, 11:24 PM
Ok, we have all at one point or another taken something from menace2000. Now, its our time to give back. I hate to call him out like this, but he was recently caught squatting on the smith machine, so I feel it is necessary to address this before it gets any worse. This needs to be fixed. So FT, I ask you, help menace squat.
Menace has a very respectable deadlift, with a not AS respectable squat. We need to find the problem.
Menace: Whats wrong with your squat? I want sticking points, stance, do your feet pronate, does your back buckle, do your hips precede your head? Tell us everything you can, and we will work on this together.
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/24, 12:26 AM
I think he is scared! LOL
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/11/24, 01:37 PM
Other points: Bar placement, what kind of shoes are you wearing, how do your knees travel, does the weight feel uncomfortable in the hole, or heavy out of the rack, do your hips feel tight???
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/24, 06:25 PM
does the weight feeling like a ton out of the rack mean your CNS isnt up to par?
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2005/11/25, 12:13 AM
lol, I just saw this...where to begin...LOL....i gotta run for now but I'll post a lengthy description later....
I appreciate your interest in helping my squat...
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2005/11/25, 10:52 PM
With close stance, I have the most strength, so that's about 8 inches between heels...problem is I have trouble #1 to sit back #2 to keep back upright(i start leaning esp on heavier weights) #3 my heels come off the floor they are not flexible enough, where i need weights underneath heels...
With wider stance I have no power no strength no nothing...at least it seems like that...my strength drops by about 100lb ....my hips have no strength...my heels stay on the ground and sitting back is easier but like I said I am struggling with 315...I try about shoulder or slightly wider stance...the wider I go the less strength I have....with wider stances I struggle with 225 ....after set of 12-15 reps I am out for the count...with heavier weight I also tend to lean forward and push with my back...
This is what I get from doing 2-3 years of 10-15 reps for squats and 1-3 rep sets of deadlifts...if anyone would like a 200+lb disparity between back/legs or any other body parts I'll tell u how to do it..LOL
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2005/11/25, 10:57 PM
With narrow stance I tend to get stuck few inches out of the hole....my knees tend to come inward a bit....even as I am trying to push out...
with wider stance I tend to stick my butt out and push with my back almost like a goodmorning...
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2005/11/25, 11:46 PM
Do you wear that pink tutu that you mentioned in the other post? That would really say GOOD MORNING!!!
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Sometimes life is like herding cats.
Charlie
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2005/11/26, 12:55 AM
Ok, where to start? The mark of a good strength coach is that he/she can find any individuals problems and correct them. Since gator is busy a lot because it is in season, and he's our only CSCS, I will pretend to be this good strength coach. lol. I'm usually pretty good at this with anyone other than myself.
I reviewed your workout logs. And other posts.
I'm going to work into this gradually.
We know your back isn't the weak link. We also know that your hamstrings aren't the problem, so most of your posterior chain is working fine seperately.
Also, your hips tend to precede your head.
Where is your bar placement. Try a lower placement, and pull your elbows together behind your back. Try a ME squat for a 1rm, and let me know if you increase at all. This will tell me more about the dynamics of your squat.
Almost everything you tell me points to one thing. Your trunk is not able to support the load, and as a result, you end up doing a good morning instead of a squat.
I know your back isnt weak, so it has to be your abs. Reviewing your log, I see you don't do direct ab work. For most individuals, direct ab work is NOT needed. Squats are usually enough. However, we are trying to fix your squat, so that's obviousy not the case with you.
Most powerlifters do extra ab work. I would recommend the same to you. But I am going to do this differently.
To start with, I am going to RECOMMEND three ab exercises. You are to alternate the first two, and the third do everytime you do a leg or back workout.
Heavy decline sit ups, standing cable crunch.
You know what these are. Work up in weight, doing sets of 10, 5, and even HEAVY triples. The decline sit ups are to get your abs strong. The standing cable crunch will get your abs strong WHILE STANDING. This is important.
And the third, and something that helped me greately (when I was doing it, before my last major injury):OVERHEAD SQUATS.
Most people don't believe that overhead squats are trunk work. Try them. They are one of the best abdominal moves anyone could do. They will teach your how to use your entire body to squat, and how to stabilize the weight. After doing these, the weight will feel much more comfortable.
You remember a while back when you started experimenting with proprioception? This can be used as a form of proprioception. Work up to a 5rm, and then from there, continue raising the weight, but continue with regular squats. I used to do what are called triple menace sets. (ironic, no?). Working up to a 5rm in the overhead squat, increasing the weight and working to a 3rm in the front squat, and then a 1rm in the back squat. That is your whole workout. I might even say front squats might be a good idea for you as well as overhead squats. Naturally you will use lighter weight, so this isn't a leg move. The weight will get higher quickly, you will be surprised. Try them before you diss them. You will get looks if you do them in a commercial gym, but its worth it. Work up to a 10 and 5rm.
For leg work, we want you to learn to squat with your legs and stop using your back. So you will box squat, on a box 1-2 inches below parallel, and one at parallel. No bands or anything fancy, we need to reteach you how to squat. Goodmornings are excellent, but you don't need them at this time. You need to be squatting with your legs. Box squats will do this.
Ok, thats all for now. Try to take this as constructive criticism. Everything I said should be taken as guidelines, and I urge other members to help disect menace's squat as well. I didn't want to call you out on this, but I felt it was necessary, especially after your smith machine post. Take it as a learning experiance.
Ok, who's next with advice???
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/26, 02:13 AM
standing cable crunches are hard to accomplish because weight I can use is too light and weight that might help will pull me up and is on a pulldown station so it will be awkward....decline sit ups are a good idea...i did them for a while but nothing mind blowing...
what helps with ankle/calf flexibility?
I have tried box squats and noticed they take a lot out of me even tho I heard repeatedly that they are easier and easier to recover from...
I have tried front squats, but I had great difficulty balancing the weight....I will try them again...
I will also finally try overhead squats.....
I appreciate your interest in helping me wrestler....thanks
lol charlie...one of my coworkers/friends almost dared me to wear tiny pink shorts(made for a 5yr old girl I believe) to the gym....I said I'd do it for 20$ but no1 coughed up the cash...LOL...bunch of cheapskates...
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2005/11/26, 09:20 PM
The difficulty in the balancing the load is because you body isn't used to balancing the load properly. You don't use your abs enough. That is why you lift the weight with your back so much more.
also, box squats being difficult for you makes sense if you think about it. They force you to squat correctly, something you are not used to. The might be more difficult at first, but I would bet you those pink shorts that they would bring up your squat.
Also, thank me when your squat goes up, but I'm always glad to help if I can. You do the same for me.
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/28, 01:43 PM
Anyone agree/disagree, or have other advice???
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/28, 05:10 PM
I think your best bet is Gator lol...I just don't think there are many S&C coaches here...
I appreciate all the help...
I tried overhead squats last night for few sets with the bar...it's pretty hard....I think I grab it too narrow...I looked at the form on animation and the hand placement was snatch style....even wider...and bar behind the head....
I also did kneeling rope crunches on the pulldownstation....strapped 2-3 45s to myself and went to town...3 sets of 100,120,140...12,12,5.........was struggling with 140....keep being pulled up....had to add 3rd plate on 3rd set to keep from being pulled up...
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2005/11/28, 07:27 PM
Somthing thats helped me alot....with the "feel" is walkouts with a 30degree parial hold.
I usually put 580 or so on bar walk out...and contract my hams, abbs, glute everything. I do this for about 5 secs....the I start a slow descent, just resisting the weight, then when i have a slight bend in my knees, i try to hold it for 5 secs or so...then I drop the weight on the rack. This of coarse no assistance gear. I do this 2 times after my normal squats.
for abbs I like decline sit ups, or clocks.
also box squats, box squats! They teach you to sit back, and make it much eaiser.
If you wide stance is weaker, put your close stance your stronger.....and thats 8in....try maybe somwher ein middle...10 or 12 in? So you have the abliity to sit back, and stability of a wide stance , but not so wide...your weak.
Somtimes you just have to start over...to get better. IF you have to drop 100lbs to go wide....then do it...just do reps of 2 or 3...do that for 4 weeks or so, then go back to you normal way....
IF your going on your toes....is your chest forward or over your toes??
Are you watching yourself in mirror?
Do you have a long torso?
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/11/29, 10:54 AM
Mutt??? Gator??? Anyone else???
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Yes I realize my shins are bleeding. And its called a deadlift. Any other questions???
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/11/29, 10:57 AM
One thing I think of is his 455 try at box squats...too heavy. i would say lighten it up do some speed box sq and go from there.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/11/29, 06:37 PM
It was very high box squat with 455...like a walk out+1/4 rep squats....
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2005/11/29, 06:51 PM
I would do your DE Squats below parallel, and your ME box should be parallel or below, based on what you told me. However, for best results, rotate box heights every 1-3 weeks.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/11/29, 06:57 PM
Tom Myslinski for elite fitness systems.
4. Problem – Fall forward
Weak Point – Low back, abdominals
CP #1 – Lead up out of hole with a spread, high chest
CP #2 – Push up with arms by keeping elbows positioned perpendicular under bar, letting the elbows rotate up and back causes the wrists to roll the bar high.
CP #3 – Do not squat into mirror, causes instability regulated by visual feedback
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/11/30, 04:04 AM
I squat into the mirror...that could be part of the problem...I'll try these tips...tks once again
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2005/11/30, 01:28 PM
If you have to (which I do while im at school), tape a piece of tape on the mirror just above eye level. That is your power point. Focus on that point the entire rep range. Its something I have to do, because the cages are right in front of the mirrors.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/11/30, 06:54 PM
box jumping squats are fun as well
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
People don't reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/11/30, 11:51 PM
OK, more feedback needed menace.
Where are you failing? Does the weight feel heavy out of the rack? Do you feel unstable?
Reviewing your log, you appear to train your legs differently then the rest of your body. As best as I can tell, you follow a form of undulating periodization.
Now, not only are you doing your upper body workouts with much more frequency, but you aren't varying the rep range or the exercises used as much. Just things to think about. Maybe break your lower body workouts into squat days and deadlift or assistance days. I would even venture as far as saying a conjugated day of speed box squats would do you good. Much easier on your muscles, but still a good CNS trainer, plus it will get into your legs.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/02, 02:52 AM
Usually I fail few inches out of the hole when I suddenly lose all strength....I found that I can train my legs/back every 14-20 days while I need to train upper body more frequently...once a week perhaps....so this is what I do....I already have deadlifts and squat on separate workouts....I do SLDLs with legs also but that's separate from deadlift as I go considerably lighter...
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2005/12/02, 01:31 PM
What I meant, is do you think that sometime during those 20 days, could you do a DE day for squat? It is far less taxing on your muscular system. Maybe try a DE workout for one of your regular squat workouts, and see how your body responds. If you recover a little faster, then you might be able to get one in every now and then, even as an "extra" workout. At worst it would be technique practice, at best, it might be just what you need.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/02, 01:44 PM
might not be a bad idea....I am usually only 'somewhat' sore after 3 days so perhaps I can do the DE squat 2-3 days before max deadlift...what would be good exercises to pair the DE squat with? ab work?
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2005/12/02, 06:01 PM
Maybe. I was suggesting JUST doing the DE work. That way, you really aren't doing that much, and you shouldn't have to worry about recovery as much. Maybe just some mobility work, then 8-12 sets of DE work, and then maybe abs. Quick workout, and you can do it as an extra workout. Doesn't even have to be a full workout. You could just go in, do 10*3, and leave. with 45sec tbs you could be in and out in 20 minutes. Really shouldn't overtax your neuro-muscular system.
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If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/03, 01:41 AM
I have the solution for you....... Come visit me in Gainesville!!!!!
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2005/12/03, 03:25 AM
gator that's a very generous offer...I'd really love to...but being on different coasts makes it somewhat difficult..
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2005/12/20, 12:11 PM
When doing deadlifts (with straps, so that grip is not limiting), where do you fail? Lockout?
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/20, 01:03 PM
Also, I was going to wait for an answer before asking this, but seeing as you don't always have access to a computer, I might as well...
Do you feel you are using your glutes properly in the squat??? I know your legs get sore, but how about the gluteals?? When coming out of a deep squat, can you feel these muscles contracting???
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/21, 05:38 AM
Usually maybe 4-6 inches off the ground.....this is where I crapped out in my 700lb attempt....part of the problem is that I grabbed it unequally... every fraction of an inch makes a huge difference when fighting like a motha with the weight....
My glutes are very sore after a good ATG squat workout or even with just slightly below parallel...lets put it this way 2-3 days after squatting it hurts to sit....so I tend to stand or put pillows under me when i am home in my computer chair....
Is the sticky chalk legal in powerlifting competition? when verstuk gave me the chalk he said it's sticky chalk they use in strongman competition when lifting boulders or whatever else....it helps my grip a lot....I really thought I had ~630 strapless deadlift in me...I think in part this is because they use big plates which center the weight and make it much easier to lift....they have plates as big as 50kb which I used ....that's 110lb plate....so the weight is more centered and the bar bends less making the weight easier to lift....isn't that also the case in competitions?
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2005/12/21, 02:38 PM
Yes. Chalk is legal. It's even legal in strong man grip competitions. Buy yourself a bag, and a brick of chalk. A standard brick of chalk should cost about a dollar, and should last several months.
And usually in PL comp, they will us 44.5kg (100lb) plates on the inside.
Well, we know it's not poor gluteal activation or tight hip flexors holding you back... Although that would have explained why verstuk commented that you pull with your back too much, as well your squat failing.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2005/12/23, 01:12 AM
Did a bit of everything yesterday... not taking creatine regularly anymore.....once every few days of 5 g...
-Did shoulders 3 days ago of 6 sets working up to 95kg for 10+0 reps on a machine loaded with plates, they didn't have freeweight bench, and i didn't feel like doing push press...
squat: ~65kg-12 reps,105kg-12 reps, 145kg-3 reps, 167kg- 3 +0 reps, all done ATG
bench: 60kg-12 reps, 100kg- 12 reps, got stuck putting weight back so had to stnad up with it, didn't wanna jam fingers in rack...the rack is too narrow...then did what was 290lb for 7+1 reps, and ~310lb for 4+0 reps....taking narrow grip and different bench made me seem so much weaker today than usual.
standing alt db curls: 29kg-8+0 reps, 32kg-4+0 reps
did stack of cable rows which was 105kg for easy 12 reps..
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2006/01/04, 12:00 AM
Menace:
When you squat ATG, does your lower back (lumbar) have a tendency to want to bend a little, or can you keep a tight arch?
Depending on your answer, I may have found something I overlooked before, that now seems kind of obvious.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/07, 04:18 PM
I tend to come forward a bit then straighten out a bit...it's nothing big...but just slightly.......I keep a tight arch but that doesn't prevent me from leaning forward
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2006/01/07, 06:19 PM
You may have tight hamstrings or glutes. Another issue may be tight gastrocnemius. More than likely, it is a combination.
Or an overall tight posterior chain. Any one of these could be holding you back. It may not be big, but it is an indicator, as are many other problems you described, it seems obvious now.
The most likely issue is tight glutes.
With olympic squats, a tight gastrocnemius is possible. The best stretch I can recommend for this isn't a calf stretch, but rather a toe touch stretch with your toes elevated. You should feel it in the insertion point by the knee.
Do you think this could be it?
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/07, 10:39 PM
possibly...my calves are pretty stiff....when i stretch touching my hands to the floor....i feel it in my calves as much as hams...but then my flexibility is pure crap...
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2006/01/11, 11:31 AM
you have much better flex than me! i can barely touch my toes...
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2006/01/11, 04:21 PM
The toe touch stretch is primarily a lower back stretch. I can go palms to the ground cold but I still have tight glutes (among other things).
Try doing the same stretch, slightly unlocking your knees, and arching your back. How far do you get?
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/11, 07:02 PM
cold i touched tops of the finger tips to the floor...oooowwww said my hamstrings......
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2006/01/11, 07:34 PM
Cold with your back arched?
Try stretching your glutes and adductors for a while, and see if you feel more comfortable in the hole.
Has the ab training helped at all?
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/11, 07:44 PM
i wish i could say...haven't done abs in 3 weeks(haven't trained last 2+ weeks in ukraine)....i think my main problem is my hip strength.....in that I have 0....this is the reason why I pull with my back in deadlifts and have much more strength close stance in squats doing a good morning...i think the only viable solution is to take the medicine , drop down in weight and do wide stance (box) squats....but I am just very hesitant to do it...because I'll be doing like 150lb less than normal....ditto on deadlifts....
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2006/01/11, 08:11 PM
If you romanian deadlift numbers are what they say they are, then I don't see how.
Box squats will defianetly help. I love dropping down to a low box even if I have to drop the weight, its just a very satisfying lift.
Tight glutes could also cause you to do a gm dl.
This may even be one of those times where leg press may be beneficial.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/11, 08:16 PM
alright then what does it mean when I have 100lb extra strength when i raise my hips up and then pull with my back in deadlifts than when I keep hips low and pull with hips+back..?
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2006/01/11, 10:51 PM
Hmmm. You mean more like a romanian? Prob weak glutes or tight glutes. However, you said you usually fail at dl closer to the ground. A failure at the lockout would show weak glutes. This is why I think they may be tight, that and the poor form with ATG squats.
It would be easier to diagnose by watching you.
The best advice I think I can give you, find a competition. Something soon, nothing to train for. There, you will find competent lifters, that are always willing to offer form advice. Its an awesome learning experiance.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/15, 12:58 PM
Do you do any unilateral work? If it is weak hips, this would be the prescription...
A lot of people train the legs with squats and deadlifts. This is fine, but in some cases, the back ends up doing all the work in these two lifts. The easiest way to overcome this, is to reduce the load, and then place that entire load on 1 leg. Since the weight on the bar is less, the load can be better focused on the leg. Make sense?
Russian reasearch has shown the benefit of step ups as well as pistols. Lunges may be another option.
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/15, 09:21 PM
would heavy partial squats be a good option to stregthen the glutes?
I do not do unilateral work...except for occassional DB curls...(lol)
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2006/01/15, 09:49 PM
Not for the glutes. Might blast your quads into hypertrophy, but not much for strength, besides getting used to heavy weight. Deadlift lockouts would be better.
Your lower back may be taking all the load when you squat. Try doing some unilateral work.
As long as your DB curls aren't in my squat rack, than we can continue to be friends...
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Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
The squat cage is holy ground.
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2006/01/16, 09:50 PM
"As long as your DB curls aren't in my squat rack, than we can continue to be friends..."
heh....I wouldn't respect myself afterwards...if I did...
Partial Deadlifts sound good...
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