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2003/12/30, 11:11 AM
I am on my 3rd advanced routine ftom FT. I have read here that to make gains in biceps the muscles must be hit from different angles. Suggestions have been Preacher curls, standing curls, incline bench curls, hammer curls , reverse curls and so forth. All 8 weeks of this routine are standing easy curls and standing barbell curls 4 sets of each.Two movements . Thats it. Is that a glitch in the program?? Somehow it just seems wrong to me.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/30, 11:53 AM
I am a big believer in supersets for building mass.
Supersets are basically broken down into two types of exercises. Mass and isolation exercises.
A compound movement is a exercise that involves two or more joint movements. These tend to build the most mass.
Isolated exercise involves one discernible joint movement and are used to target a muscle. Saying this coincides with the fiber distibution of the biceps. It is on the surface, 42% slow twitch, and 58% fast twitch. So, we have to do both types of exercises to hit these fibers, and supersetting is an ideal way to wear out the fast twitch fibers completely with heavy compound weight, then immediately hit the slow twitch which have to work now due to fast twitch exhaustion, and do isolation reps with light weight. A rep range of 6-8 is good for the compound movements(fast twitch), and 10-20 for the slow twitch, if not more. I know this sounds like alot of reps, but this rep range is necessary to stimulate these type fibers. I know this is "science" and you may not want to hear it, but putting this scheme to work changing the angles and types of exercises you do will stimulate new growth.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/30, 01:07 PM
Ok Ron, A few months ago I wrote you about this and in addition to the 2 sets of barbell sets, you suggested adding somthing like alternating dumbell curls with a minimunm if 2 sets of 12 with light weight. Is that what you are saying in the above post? I couldn't explain the difference in slow twitch and fast twitch if my life depended on it but I have gleaned the following from research and all of your kind help. God you are patient.
1 Do 2 sets like 10,8,6,6 compound bicep exercises increasing the weight on each set until I can barely make the last rep of the last set.
2 Do 2 sets of at least 16 isolation fast twitch
3 Do the reps slowly, controlled and in good form. [I usually plant my back to the wall to maintain good form.
I probably have my twitches backwards but I know my arms twitch for a while after I am done. I also follow the Mutt philosophy that if I can pick my nose afterward I didn't do enough. Somebody else can explain to Mutt what philosiphy is but he taught me.
That all being said I am mainly concerned with the fact that the FT workout only gives me the same 2 movements for 8 weeks. I have been adding the isolation movements you suggested to me. If I swap movements on the program, it changes them all to what I input. Should I just pick from the compound group and alternate on my own? .
Can you tell I want a cigar???
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/30, 01:32 PM
hey man! I have a degree in Anthropology and I took Philosophy 101! Really Ron knows his slow and fast twitch fibers. As a mutt I have neither the smarts nor the time to wait for that. But I would have him explain it more and follow his lead on this! But I do what works for me through trial and error. I lift heavy, I do compound first followed by isolation, followed by compound etc. I do supersets, desending sets, I do light weight high rep etc you get the idea!
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/30, 01:45 PM
Befoe getting into this, Charlie you do have your fibers turned around, but you have the right idea. Mutt, you are right on with your analysis. I don't know if you realize it or not, but what you are doing is exactly correct to induce maximum growth. Your last 2 lines say it all. This is the jist of what I am trying to say to do, I don't know if you do it by accident, it doesn't matter, but it is the correct approach. Way to go!!
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
hey man! I have a degree in Anthropology and I took Philosophy 101! Really Ron knows his slow and fast twitch fibers. As a mutt I have neither the smarts nor the time to wait for that. But I would have him explain it more and follow his lead on this! But I do what works for me through trial and error. I lift heavy, I do compound first followed by isolation, followed by compound etc. I do supersets, desending sets, I do light weight high rep etc you get the idea!
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/30, 01:46 PM
Muttersnapper you know I can't resist a shot across your bow. You also know I follow your workouts and belie that you have a degree in "liftology" but I kind of depend on the FT routines for a lot of reasons. I enjoy the structure and I also find it easy to record progress using the puter. I am just wondering if there is a program glitch since it gave me the same thing for 8 weeks running.
I will catch you on the squats young man. Glad to see your journals again. They keep me motivated.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/30, 02:25 PM
All i know is ron, that my arms and body grow by doing heavy movements first followed by lighter "isolation" style ones later in the workout. And Old fart charlie look for my leg workout soon!
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/31, 10:15 AM
yea and i have also read dunno if its true that slow twitcvh muscle fibers are bigger than fast twitch 20% i think so if u hit both areas u have to get bigger lol........i acidently discovered this by doing 5 sets of 10 with standing barbell curls, then doing double bicep curls( hercules's)in the 15 rep ranges, man my arms got quater inch bigger in like a month it was amazing!i thought they where stuck at the size they where
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---andrew.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
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2003/12/31, 10:23 AM
My original question was about the FT workout giving me the same 2 movements and only 2 movements for 8 straight weeks. I will substitute different movements but if this is a program glitch, I wonder if there are others.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/31, 10:26 AM
Glad to hear things are working for you. It has been asked many times the proper way to work out. Well, this is it. Like I was trying to get across to Firehawk in numerous posts, it is easy to get stronger without getting bigger. We are bodybuilders, it pays to use the science available to us and hit the muscle correctly. We have to put our egos aside sometimes and work correctly. Sometimes research pays off, that is what it is there for. Good for you guys.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/31, 10:33 AM
Charlie, sometimes "programs" are not a one size fits all, and some of the programs in FT and anywhere are that way. I think that is what the discussion board here is to help with, use FT for a base, and then modify to fit your needs better. Kind of like the fat calculator on here, of course it isn't right, but it is hard to come up with something to fit every individual. For instance, my waist never ever changes much at all, but my bodyfat drops as does weight due to this, but according to the calculator on here, I don't change bf% much. Heck, my last contest it said I was still at 12% bf, when with calipers I was actually 5%. So, let us help you tweak your workout as you need. That is what we are all here for. You get to know who to listen to.
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Quoting from charlie826:
My original question was about the FT workout giving me the same 2 movements and only 2 movements for 8 straight weeks. I will substitute different movements but if this is a program glitch, I wonder if there are others.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/31, 10:50 AM
10-4 soo.... if i substitute these compound movements;
Standing Barbell Curl
Standing Dumbbell Curls
Barbell Preacher Curls
Standing E-Z Bar Curl
Seated Dumbbell Curls
at various times for the 2 I'm given that covers my heavy reps??
Then wrap up with 2 sets of at least 16 reps of one of these;
Dumbbell Preacher Curls
Standing Barbell 21's
Inclined Dumbbell Curls
Standing Dumbbell Hammer Curls
Reverse Barbell Curls
Seated Dumbbell 21s
Concentration Curls
Lying Dumbbell Curls
Will I have covered bicep movements as well as I can?
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/31, 12:42 PM
Ok here goes (BB correct at will LOL). Charlie, Firehawk and others, you are simply stressing over nothing. You are making this way to hard. Simply put do 1-2 compund exercises and 1-2 isloation ones as well. I usualy do one compound on Iso etc. Also and others like BB, jdelts, rev can correct me, but if you really have less than 1-3 years of hard training under your belt using to many isolation exercises in one workout is not really going to accomplish much. Here is a story, that is based on two guys I see at my gym. They train with lots of intensity, yes. But as they are beginners (I say this by how they look and the weights they use), I feel they spen to much time using cables, machines and isolation exercise when compared to actually using the "heavier" exercises ie, squat, deadlifts, chins, well you get the idea. These guys while lifting hard and really "spinning" their wheels. Last night there they were doing arms. They were doing bent over concentration DB curls, like arnold did. From there they went to cable curls. Now while the two exercise are two that I would use, for them it would have been more worthwhile to do 4 sets of barbell curls and 4 sets of db curls. those 8 sets would build a foundation on which the other two exercise could be built. I may not have the most cut body there but pound for pound muscle wise I am one of the largest. I did not get that way by using a lot of cables, machines etc. I started doing and still do 1-3 compound exercise for almost every body part(back day they are all pretty much all compound). SO what I am trying to say is just listen to your body, try out other different workouts untill you see what you want, I know that is most likely not what you want to hear but it is the best way to do it.
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/31, 01:10 PM
Very well said Mutt, in fact I was going to addendum my post later to emphasize the point that you have to have a stone to chisel before you can chisel it.
Now, depending on your training experience, want to really smoke your biceps, here is one workout that will kill!
Warmup with 3 light, controlled sets going all the way down and curling with the biceps only doing seated incline curls. Remember, these are simply warmup, but contract each set and CURL the weight. Make it light enough to do this and get some blood flowing. Ok...
Standing bb curls
First set you should fail at 8. Now, you know where your failure point is(weight), so take that weight off, and ad the same weight but in 5's or 10's, depending on your strength. Again, fail at 8, but immediately strip off 20 lbs. off each side and go to failure again without rest, strip off another 20 lbs., and fail again till you are at the bar! Your arms will be burning! Do 2 more identical sets, 3 total.
Now, go to the preacher curl bench, load up a weight you can do for 6-8 reps, and do 3 set of these, but have a dumbbell(very light) ready, for inbetween each preacher set you will grab the dumbbell and do 3 sets of 12 isolation curls(elbow into knee), and CURL weight so you feel the contraction, do not swing it.
Now, for a final bombing, do 2 sets of 21's on cable curls. Alot of folks don't like cables, but the beauty of cables here is you get constant resistance pulling back on you all the time also. Lower in a controlled manner to emphasize the negative on the last 7 of each set!
Go eat! Your arms should be smoking if you did them right.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/31, 01:23 PM
Muttersnapper,I'm not really stressed over anything except smokin. My original question was kind of hijacked as far as how the Ft program worked.
You know from my journals what my routines are.
Bicep exercises have confused me mainly because when I work other body parts to toast, I can tell by moderate soreness the next day that I did it well. I usually work biceps until they quit but they are never sore. Just made me wonder.
Abs were the same way. Soreness never came until I tried the cable crunches and incline sit ups. I have never set foot in a gym. All of the proper techniques I know about lifting I have learned right here. If you don't ask the question you will never know the answer.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/31, 02:08 PM
Charlie, your bis should be at least a little sore. Make sure you squeeze at the top of every movement and hit them at all angles. Try supersetting or some other shock techniques. Also, lower the weights slowly to put more emphasis on the negative portion of the lift.
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2003/12/31, 02:36 PM
i DUNNO I have 18.75 inch arms and they are rarely sore the next day or any day for that matter.
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/31, 03:02 PM
Thanks Robert I'll try that. BB1 you will see that workout in my journal tonight and I'll let you guys know about the soreness in a couple of days.
Muttersnapper mine are only 15 1/2 but its the 9 1/2 that I am most proud of.LOL
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2003/12/31, 03:11 PM
Yeah but that is only because your eyesight is so bad you think it is larger than it really is LOL
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/31, 10:40 PM
better watch out mutt the cherleader is bout to catch up with u lol:)
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---andrew.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
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2004/01/01, 11:02 AM
Happy New Year All. Did BB1s routine as closely as I could last night. I also paid particular attention to flexing at the top and long complete movements. Though not killing me my bis are slightly sore. I will augment the FT bi routine from now on. This is a step forward. I am still limiting movements that pull on the rotator cuff to relatively light weights. When this F%6&^$^g shoulder completely heals I think I'll be able to make significant progress.
Thanks Guys,
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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