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2007/12/06, 04:21 PM
I know this is kind of a huge request, but I was wondering if knowledgeable people on this board could help me construct a program combining powerlifts, cleans, and plyometrics with a focus on developing strength and power to jump higher. I just got back into lifting after taking a couple months off due to my heavy workload, and I've sort of been haphazardly including hang cleans, DE squats, and plyos into existing programs I've done before. Honestly though, I really have no idea what I'm doing, and I was hoping somebody on here could give me an idea of how to structure something like this so it would be most efficient.
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2007/12/06, 11:27 PM
Look into some basic olympic lifting programs. You'd still be squatting heavy, doing cleans, snatches, and even have room for plyometrics.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/12/07, 02:05 AM
I hate to take this lazy way out, but if you're willing to spend a few bucks, Kelley Bagget's Vertical Jump Bible is pretty solid.
Steve gives good advice.
It does scare me that you have no idea what you're doing, but that you are doing olympic lifts. I would really master the form before getting into those heavily- you can really hurt yourself.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2007/12/07, 10:46 AM
People overestimate the risk associated with the olympic lifts. I have watched people do cleans piss poor for years, and the snatch is easy to learn well enough to perform. With the exception of dropping a split jerk, there aren't many injuries associated with the oly lifts. Besides that, a beginners oly program should break the lift down into portions and teach the portions in a way that helps to improve the form.
Of course, I would never recommend this to someone who wants to compete in the olympic lifts, since technique is such a huge factor in the weights you lift. However, I don't think picture perfect form has as much carryover as getting stronger with decent form.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/12/07, 05:45 PM
Haha, I meant I have no idea what I'm doing in terms of constructing a routine like this. I'm not fantastic at cleans but I've worked with a few people and I think I am good enough to get benefit out of doing hang cleans. I don't feel comfortable with the snatch though, I've never even done it. I will buy that book I think then, I am looking to start something in January after I get an apartment. I thought I had read somewhere that deadlifting heavy is better than squatting in terms of improving vertical, is that incorrect?
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2007/12/07, 05:50 PM
Deadlifting more closely mimics a vertical jump, but I don't know if one is necessarily better than the other.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/12/07, 08:48 PM
Yeah, they both have very strong benefits.
Deadlifting mimics it more closely (as Steve said), but full range squats benefit such things as hitting the Vastus Medialis (teardrop) which is important for knee health and function. Deadlifting allows you to handle more weight (especially with straps), while squats probably have a slight edge in strengthening your abs.
In terms of training for vertical, it is really hard most of the time to make blanket statements, such as "this is better than that for vertical." This is because everybody calls for something different. You could have someone that can push around a lot of weight in the gym, but is slow...or someone that is fast, but needs to build strength.
To me, all of these things should be considered:
1. Strength work
2. Dynamic work
3. PNF Stretching
4. Achieve Low Bodyfat
5. Exercises with high power-output
--This is not necessarily plyometrics, but for example,
jumps for maximum height.
6. Plyos, but not overdone (depth jumps are good).
7. Band work, but once again, not too much.
8. Don't forget to keep your opposing muscle groups in line. You want a good stretch reflex and joint health, so keep your shins, hip flexors, and hammstrings strong.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2007/12/07, 08:50 PM
Well said.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/12/08, 04:22 PM
I found some writings online by Kelley Baggett and they were really interesting; they seemed to codify some intuitive thoughts I already have about jumping and jump training just from lifting and playing so much basketball over the years. He gives an example of a 3 day a week workout which I think I will do (I'll post it later, I have to run in a minute). Based on the kind of jumper I am and what I'm looking to do, the best option according to Baggett is to do a little bit of speed work and focus on strength.
I weigh about 220 now so I need to be squatting about 330-340 without gaining much weight, which would be an increase of 50 pounds or so. After I reach that goal he gives an example of a routine involving more explosive training which I'll switch to. After all that, I think I could probably lose about 5 lbs without losing strength. I'm at 11-12% body fat right now I'd guess, but it's tough to go any lower than that and still make strength gains. I'll post a more detailed plan later, based on what I found on the internet so I can get some feedback. Wow, this is going to take a while.
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2007/12/08, 10:21 PM
Kelley Baggett is one of my favorites. He is very thorough. There's a lot strength coaches out there that make their little "jumping article" and move on, just to make the people that keep asking them about it happy...and the articles usually are not thorough at all, and the programs pretty much suck.
Fat loss when training for this stuff can be intimidating at first, but there are some good options out there. I have never done carb cycling, but it seems to be a great option for what you are going for.
What does your diet look like? Are you currently using any supplements?
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2007/12/08, 11:39 PM
My diet is good as far as macronutrients go, but in overall health quality probably mediocre. I take no supplements. I need to eat absurd amount of calories to gain strength and maintain a weight of 220-225. My bf isn't that high, and I think realistically losing more than 5-7 pounds isn't going to happen without losing muscle mass as well. I've never intentionally tried to lose weight but I have accidentally lost 20-30 pounds at times when I haven't been able to afford to eat as much as I'm used to, and when I'm not lifting. When I was in London for example I went from 230 to 200 in like a month or two. After that I came back and after eating normally I quickly got back to about 210 and was jumping the best I ever have, but my strength levels sucked.
Given that I have a naturally high metabolism I figured losing a little bit of fat wouldn't be too bad, and I'll get to this when I come to it. I find it difficult to stay under 10% and still gain strength. My plan is to just monitor my weight to make sure I'm not gaining much, as long as I am getting stronger. Although if my strength gains stagnate I will increase my calories obviously. Eventually I would like to be heavier at the same bf%, but I think as a short term goal it is more doable to reach 330 on the squat than 350 or more.
I am more concerned with increasing my squat in 3-4 months. I figure compared to that cutting five lbs. will be easy.
I agree with you about Baggett's writing style, I like it a lot. Even though a decent amount of articles contained a great deal of things I already knew, it was very well put together. His programs are also refreshingly specific, while giving you some options. Most vertical articles I have read give you frustratingly general recommendations.
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2007/12/14, 01:13 PM
Here's a link to the site where I found Baggett's articles:
http://vertcoach.com/articles.html
This is a direct link to the article for the routine I think I'll use:
http://vertcoach.com/split-training.html
The routine is 3 days a week with 4 different workouts. Prior to each workout you are supposed to do a movement efficiency exercise, and a plyometric exercise. Every workout you are supposed to either be lifting more weight in your main lift, or doing more reps.
Here is the routine, not including the movement efficiency and plyometrics. These are just example exercises, I will keep the same basic setup but change some of the exercises. I don't know if I'm going to bother with doing forearm exercises though. I don't have a problem with grip strength when I do ME deadlifts, and I can palm a ball just fine so I don't know if there will be a lot of benefit.
Foundational Split
Set up 2 upper body workouts and 2 lower body workouts and alternate between them on an every other day basis with weekends off.
Workout 1: is Chest, Chin-ups, and arms in that order
Workout 2: is Squats, hamstrings, calves and forearms in that order
Workout 3: is Shoulders, Rows, chest, and arms in that order
Workout 4: is Deadlifts, squats, calves, and forearms in that order
Monday (workout 1)
Bench Press or Board press variation 4 x 3-5
Wide Grip chin 4 x 6
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 3 x 8
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Skull Crushers 3 x 10
Wednesday (workout 2)
Squat or box squat 4 x 5
Glute/Ham Raises or pullthroughs 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10
forearms 2 x 20-30
Friday (workout 3)
Incline bench press or Shoulder Press 4 x 5
Rows 4 x 8
Tricep pushdowns 2 x 10
Preacher curl 2 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10
Monday (workout 4)
Deadlift or rack deadlift 4 x 5
Single leg squat variation 2 x 10
Calf Raises 3 x 15
Forearms 2 x 20
Wednesday (Repeat workout 1)
Friday (Repeat workout 2)
Sets should be terminated at the point right before form starts to break down. Rotate the lifts about every 4-8 weeks or whenever a lift stalls. You can use different exercises if you like.
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2007/12/14, 01:39 PM
The only problem I have with this program is that there is no dynamic lower body work, and it is heavily internally rotated in nature. You need more external rotation, or you'll end up with shoulders like mine.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2007/12/14, 02:57 PM
I think you've become hung up on this internal vs. external rotation thing without fully understanding the movements.
In this program...
Internal: bench press, chin ups (minimal due to wide grip)
External: deadlift, rows, overhead.
I see if anything a balance towards external rotation, though I don't think it will matter enough either way.
I had never seen one of Kelly's programs but it seems solid. I would like to see more dynamic work, though if you are doing plyo's that will be enough, and this would build a great base before getting into explosive work.
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SQUAT MORE ~Jesse Marunde
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/12/15, 10:33 AM
Yeah you are doing plyos before every workout, I just didn't post that part sorry. I will start doing more dynamic work when I can squat 1.5x bodyweight though. His argument, which I think I agree with, is that dynamic work is less crucial when you have a lower level of base strength. Additionally between all the jumping I do from playing basketball I'm probably getting a decent amount out of that. I'll actually probably have to cut back on the basketball to see gains in my squat.
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2007/12/15, 01:48 PM
Ohhh...I didn't go to the link, so I didn't see the plyometrics.
And I also didn't notice that it gave the option for the overhead work. All I saw was the rows, and I wasn't really thinking about the dl's being external. Sorry bout that one retro. I didn't take enough time to read it well.
And I would agree that if you're playing basketball, you're getting plenty of jumping. How often do you play, and to what level of competition?
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2007/12/16, 02:52 AM
Who I play with depends on who shows up to the gym. When it's a good game most of the guys there could have played in college, and I usually play about 4 times a week. I'm moving in January though so I'm not sure exactly what I'll be doing. I am planning on focusing on lifting and just doing some shooting and ball handling drills, and playing once a week or so. I am still not entirely sure how its all going to work out since I don't have an apartment yet.
I will post more excerpts from that website if you want, it spells out more the program in more detail, including other exercises to use.
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2007/12/16, 10:05 AM
Defending Olympic Lifting Movements for Athletes, Strongmen, and Powerlifters
By Matt Delaney
For www.EliteFTS.com
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Good strength coaches and lifters know that there are no absolutes in training. Exercise selection depends on the situation. However, given the right situation, Olympic lifting can be a badass way to train force development. That being said, my point here isn?t to provide biased information about how Olympic lifts are the only way to train athletes, powerlifters, or Strongman competitors but rather that these lifts also have a place in strength training.
When dealing with beginners, I never understood why some coaches trained power with speed powerlifts or weighted jump squats. I think Joe DeFranco was right on with his statement that newbies have too difficult a time keeping their technique clean with speed squats to warrant the use of weighted jump squats. In one of his articles, the Thinker mentioned the use of medicine ball throws and weighted jump squats as alternatives to Olympic lifting. I like this idea because John Garhammer?s research shows that the only events that replicate the force development seen in Olympic lifting are track and field events. However, I think this is a horrible idea for young beginners.
Beginners need simplicity. What works for coordinated collegiate and professional athletes in large groups is less effective for small groups of high school athletes. As a coach, you can give more attention to younger athletes, who respond well to Olympic lifts because of how much easier skill acquisition is at a younger age. In a recent article, Charles Poliquin discussed coordination. He said that coordination is a specific skill, and if acquired at a young age, it can be invaluable. This is why Olympic lifting is great for young kids. It?s basically a modified version of gymnastics minus the intense landings.
Eric Cressey wrote that deadlifts are quite possibly the best force development tool. If I?m half as smart as Eric when I?m finished with strength and conditioning, I?ll be happy. However, I think his statement is bullshit. Speed deadlifts are great, but they are another less than effective method for beginners. The movement doesn?t mimic jumping at all, and the bar speed is slowest at exactly the wrong time. If you?re trying to jump for max height, the speed of the hip and knee extension needs to be at its fastest in the last portion of the movement. In order to mimic jumping, the bar speed must be the fastest during the pull above the knees to invoke the violent hip, knee, and ankle extension.
Deadlifts are quite possibly the best structural lifts possible. They are a great general strength movement and can help improve posture, hormonal response, and injury prevention. However, what makes them a great structural lift also makes them a poor force development tool for the beginner. I?d rather have a beginner squat or deadlift more frequently rather than have a speed day.
Olympic lifts offer many unique benefits that you can?t get from other lifts. Snatches and cleans are a very moderate or very intense practice of triple extension, depending on the load. Also, depending on the load, the landings can be less intense than weighted jump squats or box jumps. This is especially true for heavier athletes who don?t have any business weighing down their jump squats. The lifts will carry over well to box jumps and other plyometric exercises but not vice versa. There aren?t any good Olympic lifters with low vertical jumps. However, it?s possible to be proficient in many different plyometric activities without excelling at Olympic lifts. This is because jump squats, even when loaded with a weight vest, don?t offer a significant spinal load.
Medicine ball throws are another alternative. They make more sense, but for healthy athletes, they still don?t offer a significant spinal load. The Thinker makes a great point with his latest article. He says that the amount of weight is monumentally important when it comes to force development and bets a steak dinner that you can apply more force with 90 kilos than 20 kilos. Well, then why do medicine ball throws at all for beginners if you?re on a budget and trying to save time? Think about it. You don?t have to buy heavier medicine balls when one becomes too light, and you don?t have to go outside during the workout unless it?s to condition! Besides, how the hell do you even measure medicine ball heights? It?s far easier just to throw more weight on the bar.
Olympic lifts also offer many additional benefits. Artie Dreschler offers four reasons, which I think are of most vital importance for athletes or those seeking athletic qualities:
The mere practice of the Olympic lifts teaches an athlete how to apply large amounts of force. Part of the extraordinary abilities of an Olympic lifter arises out of his having learned how to effectively activate more of his muscle fibers more rapidly than others who aren?t trained to do so. This becomes extremely important for athletes who need to remain at lower body weights for athletic purposes but need to learn how to apply greater force. Olympic lifts will help build force development without producing unnecessary hypertrophy, which could even tighten the athlete up and make him or her slower.
The practice of proper technique in the Olympic lifts teaches an athlete to apply force with his or her muscle groups in the proper sequences (i.e. from the center of the body to its extremities). This is a valuable lesson that can be of benefit to any athlete who needs to impart force on another person or object. Olympic lifts are great teachers of intra-muscular coordination. The ability to produce much force at the right time is something that?s invaluable for athletes.
Athletes learn to receive force from another moving body and become conditioned to accept forces.
Athletes learn how to master the stretch shortening cycle. The lifts essentially teach how to move from an eccentric to concentric muscle action very rapidly.
Despite all of these benefits, there are still those who refuse to use these lifts for athletes because they believe that you can?t use Olympic lifting for athletes unless you?re training Olympic lifters. You certainly don?t copy Olympic lifting programs with athletes, but I?m with Jim Wendler on this. We aren?t training powerlifters either but don?t we want our athletes to be stronger to help prevent injury? Maybe you aren?t as aggressive on loads or maybe you don?t lift from the floor, but it?s still a beneficial activity for athletes. This is especially true for beginners who may benefit from the low intensity landings. I regularly see kids perform box and hurdle jumps, and most beginners struggle much more with soft eccentric landings in these activities than in cleans or snatches.
Olympic lifts are a great way to help develop mobility of the wrists, hips, and ankles while also promoting stability in the shoulder. For coaches who deal with older professional or collegiate athletes, some overhead movements aren?t the best exercise choices. However, with younger athletes, there?s a lot you can do to progress them to have bulletproof shoulders with Olympic lifting movements. At this young age, there are many structural and postural changes that can be made quickly as long as you make smart progressions. A very intelligent physical therapist, John Pallof, has actually found a place for cleans in his program for pitchers because he believes the lifts have some unique qualities in force absorption for the shoulder.
Power
The Thinker wrote that the Olympic lifts won?t help develop explosive strength until the athlete is capable of handling large amounts of weight. For his population of experienced athletes, this may be true. However, for beginners, this isn?t the case. For beginners, even light loads will be extremely beneficial once they have attained a general strength base. Think long term. Olympic lifts are still the best force development tool with a barbell. Powerlifts don?t have the same training effect due to the duration of the lift, the distance the bar has to travel, and the speed of the movement.
Without boring you with research details, John Garhammer found that even when dropping intensities in strength lifts, power outputs never approach those seen in the Olympic lifts. The only events that could duplicate the same power outputs were those seen in track and field. Watch any national level meet, and you?ll see many athletes who can move from an eccentric to concentric muscle action very rapidly. The Olympic lifts help athletes master the stretch shortening cycle and become proficient in the many activities that the lifts carryover into.
If you?re an athlete and you aren?t convinced, talk to Tim Swords, who has developed some excellent world level weightlifters and some insanely strong high school athletes. Tim coaches an Olympic lifting club, Team Houston, out of his garage with very little fancy equipment. He?s not only a good coach but has been in the trenches as a very strong former NFL football player (150-kilo snatch). He was kind enough to send me a picture of his young stud Cameron Swart with some additional comments on the benefits of the Olympic lifts:
?Notice Cameron Swart in this clean and jerk. He has done as much as 190 kilos, but this was three weeks after high school football season where he led the state of Texas, a huge football state, in tackles for a loss with 34. That?s basically dominating the line of scrimmage. You can?t sell Olympic lifting to some people because they get out of their comfort zone. I have fought with this for years with stupid strength coaches all over America.? ?Tim Swords
Cameron Swart; courtesy of Tim Swords
Strength
If you aren?t an athlete and you just want to get strong, Olympic lifting can still be helpful for strength events. It can help develop athletic qualities while simultaneously developing strength in strength movements. Olympic lifting does require much technique, but you can still be very strong in the strength lifts without performing a large amount of them. Physical therapists and chiropractors may cringe at the deep positions seen in Olympic lifts, but the strength built up in the very deep positions is why Olympic lifters, when training safely, have very strong knees, shoulders, backs, and hips.
There are numerous examples of strength athletes who have built a great general strength base through Olympic lifting. Bill Starr set an American powerlifting record in 1968 with a 660-lb deadlift at 198 lbs without ever really having trained for it. Kenny Croxdale, a powerlifting coach, helped develop some tremendously strong pullers using the Olympic lifting variations. Olympic lifts allow you to build work capacity and stimulate the fast twitch muscle fibers all over while keeping the time under tension relatively low. This becomes critical for deadlift training, which can be extremely taxing because heavy deadlift loads will have slow bar speed and a long time under heavy tension. This can overtrain you very quickly. I know of several other Olympic lifters with excellent squats and deadlifts who don?t focus too much attention on either lift. Take Innocent Upkong, a world level weightlifter who has squatted in the mid 700s with a narrow stance and deadlifted 660 lbs for a double in the 187-lb weight class!
Olympic lifters don?t always win Strongman contests, but many of the qualities that they develop through their training are useful in the events that have been contested in the past. Bruce Wilhelm, a former Olympic lifter, won the first Strongman competition, which consisted of the best bodybuilders, powerlifters, and strength athletes of the time. I don?t think it?s any coincidence that Olympic lifters consistently do well in Strongman events. The competitions often have events that Olympic lifters are prepared for.
Want to simulate the hip and leg extension needed to move stones fast? Cleans or snatches are a good idea! Want to get more height in keg tosses? Power snatches are a good idea! Want to get good in overhead pressing events? Push presses are your ticket! My coach, Denis Reno, watched Mikael Koklaev in 2006 clean and jerk 240 kilos and then place third in the Arnold Classic Strongman events. Imagine that type of work capacity!
The Olympic lifts are unique in that the overall volumes can be much higher than powerlifting but still yield training effects. Just compare Koklaev to many of the other American Strongman competitors on IFSA when you get a chance. His posture, balance, and athletic qualities are all superior to his competitors. If you want an amazing display of strength and athleticism, search YouTube for Koklaev?s strength feats video. He muscle snatches 150 lbs, deadlifts over 800 lbs, and front squats over 600 lbs. Now, you don?t get that from medicine ball throws, weighted jump squats, or speed deadlifts.
While Olympic lifters take years to develop, Olympic lifts don?t require world class technique to elicit training effects for beginners. When you have a good strength coach eyeing your technique from the hang, it isn?t that difficult because the jump is a very natural motion. For beginners, using loads that are light enough to get good bar speed and technique will go a long way in helping teach an invaluable tool for force development.
Matt Delaney is a strength and conditioning coach (CSCS) at St. Sebastian?s High School. He is a competitive Olympic lifter and an Olympic lifting coach. Matt has totaled 240 kilos in the 77-kilo class, has been measured at 35.8 inches in the countermovement vertical jump, and has run the 10-yard dash in 1.59 seconds. Feel free to contact him at mdelaney@excelstrength.com with questions or comments.
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\\"The eight laws of learning are explanation, demonstration, imitation, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, and repetition\\"
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