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2005/07/28, 09:08 PM
First of all, I'm very excited to have found this site and can't wait to use all of the info available to help in my quest!
My name is Wayne Shepherd. I've been lifting on and off for around 5 years. Since that time I've had alot of gains, and alot of physical problems. My biggest problem is that I'm as fat as they come, lol.
When I first stopped lifting 2.5 years ago, I weighed 335lbs. My bench press was stuck at 300lbs, my squat was just a little over 500lbs, and my deadlift was non-existent. Now I weigh 450lbs(nearly all fat), I can bench 350lbs, afraid to squat(trouble with the ol' knees), and I'm starting to attempt deadlifts again.
My first question is, what kind of advice can you give me on first of all losing weight and still keep adding strength? I know that the two don't go together. I've been cutting my carbs down to almost like an Atkins diet. And I've bumped my protein intake up since all of my other lifts have been going up. Usually just before I go to the gym I go ahead and most of the carbs that I will take in for the whole day.
Do you guys have any suggestions on what I can do other than keep lifting hard and go along with my diet as planned? I've dropped about 13lbs since beginning last week.
Thanks in advance,
vwshepherd
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2005/07/28, 10:06 PM
13 lbs per week is way to fast to be losing weight, especially if you want to keep your strength. Aim for a 1-2% weight loss per week. I know that doesn't sound like much, but there IS a right way and a wrong way to lose.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/07/28, 10:13 PM
Yeah I know wrestler, I'm not real serious about getting weight off fast just as long as I can gradually get it off. The first week of this diet is supposed to drop quite a bit of weight then go to a slower pace once your body gets used to it(at least that's the way I understand it).
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2005/07/29, 01:24 AM
Email me @ certifiedweighttrainer@yahoo.com
you need a serious consultation - no charge. We need to get you under 300 lbs
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2005/07/29, 04:46 PM
gatormade, I dropped you an email, it was pretty lengthy though. Hope it helps, and thanks once again!
-vwshepherd
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2005/07/30, 12:47 AM
Just out of curiosity, do you guys ever use any kind of elbow support? I did years ago, but haven't since starting back. But my left elbow is getting fairly sore for a day or so after bench day or any kind of tricep work.
Would you guys recommend just a plain neoprene sleeve or should I spend the extra cash on something like the APT(maybe ATP) sleeves, the new inzer ones?
Thanks,
vwshepherd
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2005/07/30, 02:38 AM
VW at this point in time I really think lifting should be last on your mind....you should focus on nutrition and cardio....you need to drop 150+lb...ASAP...you're morbidly obese from what you described so far....you're putting yourself at great risk for injuries or worse...you're putting tremendous amount of stress on the heart...aim to lose 5lb a week....go on a sensible diet where you're eating 1500 calories in 3 or more small meals....with whole foods....bottom line you need to lose weight above all else....
if it's slight soreness then it's not uncommon...you can adjust your grip on bench to see if it relieves some of the discomfort....a sleeve may help a bit...although you have no guarantees....
good luck
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2005/07/30, 09:04 AM
Meanace I think maybe 1500 is way way to low. Most docs would suggest 2000 as a starting point. Most active women take in more than that. Just my thought.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/07/30, 11:51 PM
In menace's defence, that depends on how you read it.
"1500 calories in 3 or more small meals...."
If that 1500 calories is divided among 3 meals not including snacks and other small meals every 2-3 hours to keep the metabolism running, then that is sensible.
However, 1500 total calories, for a man that is 300+ and lifting, that is way to low.
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2005/07/30, 11:53 PM
I would say go with inzer, only because i trust that company more when it comes to weightlifting equipment. I would try to do without it.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/07/31, 12:02 AM
i think 1500 is very sensible...people of this size are put on liquid diets of 800 calories daily to dorp the weight ASAP....the health risk outweight any concerns from this drastic diet....loose skin afterwards...or excess muscle loss....he's 450lb....morbidly obese....1500 divided into 3 meals is ok....maybe he could eat some low calorie snacks in between....celery sticks or asparagus....etc....is 1500 very small for 450lb guy? ofcourse...point is to get downt he weight FAST...i mean can you fathom the stress his heart and other major organs are on?
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2005/07/31, 12:37 AM
Actually manace, my blood pressure, thyroid, liver, and all cardiac work-up, etc... are perfectly normal, and actually better than my both of my younger brothers, whom were both high school athletes.
menace, I see what your saying though, but as far as the weight training, I'm not willing to drop the amount of weight I lift just yet only because of the fact that I lift with about 3-4 other guys (all are in great shape). I can actually lift more than anyone else as far as MY group of lifters go. It doesn't take anymore out of me than it does any of the others. Actually other than cardio(which I agree, I need tons more) I'm usually the last one finished in the gym.
Don't get me wrong menace, I see what your saying and agree almost whole heartedly. I want to get the weight off, but I'd rather loose it slowly, rather than have it come back quickly. Also, I know that there will always be excess skin because of my current weight, but I'd rather take my time and have some of it stretch back into place, as much as it will.
On a side note, I am 28 years old, and when I was 18, I only weighed 225lbs. So, hopefully I can get back to somewhere around 275lbs to 315lbs.
I have had some correspondence with the great(IMO) Shawn Lattimer about some good cardio for guys my size, and think I may have to take in his suggestions along with others I'm getting as of right now. Once gatormade has an oppurtunity to get back with me, I plan on taking his advice into great consideration. He seems to be very knowledgable about powerlifting and staying in good overall shape.
Thanks for the input, it is really appreciated. Even you menace. LOL, at first I took some offense to your first post, but after thinking about it I do appreciate the advice. And I know that when you make a post of this nature your opening yourself to both advice and criticism. Thanks.
Thanks again,
vwshepherd
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2005/07/31, 12:59 AM
VW i am glad you didn't take offense to what I said because I obviously said it with the best of intentions...I am glad to hear you're in good health now...but neverthless....you're putting your body through an amazing amount of stress with your current bodyweight and the heavy lifting...and cardio...perhaps since you're in good health... slow and steady weight loss is appropriate....But I still think you should aim to drop like 10 lb a month...and 120 in a year....good health is here today and gone tomorrow...so beware....and seek a doctor's advice...
on a sidenote although disappointing your workout buddies is hard...especially if you're a hardcore lifter...I think they will understand if your health is at risk....
take care and best of wishes...
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2005/07/31, 08:27 PM
Bro, resend that email. I never received it. Send it to:
certifiedweighttrainer@yahoo.com Or, send it to my box on here. I will help you anyway I can.
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2005/07/31, 09:30 PM
lol, your kidding. I'll resend it in just a minute.
Thanks again gatormade,
vw
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2005/07/31, 10:51 PM
Huh??? Where did you see veshephard taking offence to anything menace wrote. I thought he took it better than most people take any kind of advice, right or wrong.
Lifting weights on a low calorie diet would help him retain as much muscle as possible. Most trainers, myself included, would say that weights are oftentimes more important than cardio for loosing weight. And I build strength while cutting every year for 5 months out of the year for the competitive folkstyle season, so I don't see why he should have to sacrifice strength for weight. I think he can continue to lift, and highly recommend it.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/07/31, 11:16 PM
wrestler i hear what you're saying....however how many people have you trained with or trained that are morbidly obese? lifting is great at preserving muscle I agree....but in his case it's backwards thinking...because that same lifting is putting tremendous amount of strain on top on his heart that's already working hard to support his 450lb body....he needs to lose weight....ASAP....I mean I don't want to get dramatic....but he's at a point where his risk of heart attack at any given point is sky high....and even higher on those training sessions....he could literally die from this......his mission is not to gain muscle, or preserve as much muscle as possible....his #1 goal is to lose weight as fast as possible.....after he does that he can worry about all the other things...at this point those other factors are easily outweighed....
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2005/07/31, 11:37 PM
I still dont think he should stop lifting. Lifting has been proven to do more for weight loss than cardio alone over and over again. I'm not saying he should take up competitive powerlifting or olympic lifting. I would recommend a bodybuilding circuit training type of routine. Light weights, fast paced, to keep the heart rate up. Kinda like cardio with weights.
Also remember: Jumping into a cardio routine at his weight could be dangerous too. At least he has experiance lifting.
Also, I think 10 lbs per month should be what he shots for. That is about a 1-3% loss per week. However, I think he can do it on more than 1500 calories a day. That should be reserved for after he stops losing weight at the rate he is. Aparently, he is doing great on the diet he is on right now. Why fix what isn't broken???
It's always great getting to debate these types of issues with people that ACTUALLY know what they are talking about. This is what I like about freetrainers.
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2005/08/01, 12:00 AM
First off thanks for keeping this post at the top...Secondly Man_of_Steel, I havent taken offense to anything that menace said, he's correct I am what a doctor(or anyone else for that matter), would call morbidly obese whether I'd like to admit it or not. Now, on to your other question Man_of_Steel, I posted on here to get as MANY DIFFERENT outlooks on this subject as possible so that way I could take everyone's advice and opinions into consideration to use what hopefully will work for me. Once again, I appreciate all of the advice given thus far.
As far as the lifting goes, I do think that unless I have some kind of trouble or start feeling that it is holding me back I will have to keep on lifting. Granted, I may not be able to lift the way I'd like to for awhile. I'm dedicated to (as of right now) getting as strong as I can possibly get AS long as I can keep losing weight.
Please keep your advice and opinions coming, but please read a post thoroughly before posting in arguement just to be posting. I take no offense at any posts thus far, I take them as helpful and hopefully constructive criticism that will help get to where I want to be in life.
-vwshepherd
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2005/08/01, 12:21 PM
Personally I think counting calories can pretty much be a waste of time for the most part. When you're that big (no offense to you at all vwshepherd), you will drop that weight like flies if you work out with intensity and just clean up your diet. I would give you enough credit to know when to stop eating, I think you're smart enough for that. I'm not sayin don't have guidelines, just don't worry so much about numbers, worry more about the quality of food you eat. And do not drop weight training, it is the most important part.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/08/01, 12:23 PM
Just make organic fruits and veggies your main carbohydrate sources, with your occasional oats or brown rice. This works like a charm. And limit your meats to lean turkey and chicken. If you eat sensible amounts of these things, you WILL lose a lot of weight.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/08/01, 01:40 PM
if your drinking pop, stop drinking pop right now. my parents used to drink pop and when they stoped they droped about 10 lbs just by taking away pop.
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2005/08/01, 02:15 PM
Thanks guys. arondaballer, the only real carbs that I put into myself as of right now is generally my bowl or raisin bran before workout days for breakfest, other than that it is pretty much low to no carbs thru out the rest of the day. Almost like an Atkin's diet. I also eat a bowl of oatmeal a couple of times a week.
smallbig, I do drink some Diet Mountain Dew. But only with Lunch and Dinner. Other than that it is usually a 1-2 gallons of water per day. Sometimes I throw in some Tea. But, I have to admit I do like my Tea sweetened.
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2005/08/01, 09:32 PM
Lifting weights is the best thing for someone who is obese. Adding muscle mass is a good thing. It is metabolically active so he will burn more calories at rest. All the research on obese people is weight training is the first thing to do. Most cannot do anything longer than a short burst anyway. Cardio is very difficult for someone with obesity. I worked with general pop before finally diving into the sports community. I had a guy that was 315 lbs when I got him. He had zero training background. I told him to eat 5 pieces of fruit a day and drink 10 glasses of water a day. That was the only diet change I made over the first 8 weeks. Adding those removes other bad choices because they are a little more full from the fruit and water. Besides it is very hard for someone starting out to concentrate on getting into a diet and exercise routine. He lifted 3 times a week over the first 8 weeks for about 35-40 minutes a session. We fixed a few more diet issues. I had him consume more protein and vegetables over the next 8 weeks. Exercise plan stayed the same. We never did cardio. After 16 weeks he was 285lbs. He gained 15 lbs of lean body mass during that same time period. His back and knees felt much better too. Bro, stick with the weights. I will send you the plan in my reply to your email. We will get you below 300lbs.
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2005/08/01, 10:18 PM
I agree with Gator. As a 300+lb guy I can attest to this. When people see me move ire as in run or move fast, they are surprised as to how fast I can move. That said when i tell them I am over 300 they are shocked. I know a few guys at work that are close to my weight and they have problems walking over to the snack machine. My point is that he needs to ease into this not go full bore into a crash diet and large amounts of cardio. We all know that consuming to low in cals and lifting is bad news....good luck man!
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/08/01, 11:04 PM
Just because it will be hard for him to make gains is no reason for him to give up the weights. Besides, he is more likely to be able to respound positively to weights, which he is already doing, than cardio 5 times a week. Weight is never a reason not to lift, it is more a reason TO lift than anything else.
Also, I am glad that gator and mutt agree. Their is no reason to jump right into a strict diet. Like I said before, he is losing weight, so why fix what isn't broken. when he plateaus, THEN it is time to tighten up the diet.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/08/01, 11:53 PM
Okay, I'm glad at least a few of you guys are on my side about me keeping on lifting. With that being said, I thought that I would go ahead and post my daily workouts, to see what you guys think.
First dont get me wrong, I know these numbers aren't that great, but I'm proud of them considering thus far they're still going up.
Chest:
Flat Bench
2 sets 135lbs(warm up) 8 reps each
Set 1: 325lbsx2
Set 2: 290lbsx3
Set 3: 305lbsx3
Set 4: 325lbsx2
Set 5: 290lbsx3
Set 6: 305lbsx3
Incline Bench
Set 1: 245lbsx2
Set 2: 215lbsx3
Set 3: 230lbsx3
Set 4: 245lbsx2
Set 5: 215lbsx3
Set 6: 230lbsx3
Decline Bench:
Did the same as Incline Bench, hadn't been doing as much Decline lately, so I figured I'd ease my way back in.
That was about it, except for walking on the ol' treadmill for 15min.
Thanks for all of the encouraging words.
-vwshepherd
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2005/08/03, 01:15 PM
How about upper back work to match all that upper body pushing work? Or do you do that on a seperate day? How about some pulldowns or rows. Any rotator cuff work? Don't neglect the rotators, or you will end up with a problem that far to many people end up with needlessly.
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2005/08/03, 02:50 PM
Keep lifting...
Crash dieting (anything under 2000 cal) and cardio will put the body of an obese person into:
1. Starvation mode- they might lose the weight for the first two to four weeks, but then the body stops and realizes what is going on!
2. Heart Failure- normal healthy people deal with heart failure by pushing thier bodies too hard; imagine someone who's heart is already working hard, doing lots of cardio making it work harder! Disaster waiting to happen!
Diet should be the first to change, not restricting calories, but changing the foods you eat; especially since he is already lifting weight. (Done) And already said, I know.
Gradually increase cardio over a period of time; the amount of time depends on the person.
Chris
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2005/08/03, 04:22 PM
wrestler, I'm glad you asked. I hadn't had time to get back to the board in the past day or so.
I did chest on Monday, and I usually do back on a separate day.
Tuesday was the day that I dedicated to back/biceps this week.
First Upright Rows:
Set 1: 95lbsx6
Set 2: 115lbsx6
Set 3: 135lbsx4
Bent Over Rows:
Set 1: 135lbsx5
Set 2: 155lbsx5
Set 3: 185lbsx4
Lat Tower: 4 Sets of increasing weight 8 reps each
Stiff Legged Deadlifts:
Set 1: 135lbsx6
Set 2: 185lbsx6
Set 3: 225lbsx6
That was all for back this week, I usually do some one armed rows for the back as well, but was running a little short on time.
Biceps: short workout this week
Barbell Curls:
65lbsx8
85lbsx6
Alternating Bicep Curls:
25's, 2 sets of 10
40's, 1 set of 10
50's, 1 set of 8
Also did some forearms Tuesday:
(I'm not sure what exactly to call this one, a rope with a handle and some weight fixed to the other end of the rope)
3 sets, with increasing weight
20lb dumbells, 2 sets of forearm extensions
Also went to the track late yesterday afternoon for a mile walk. Still slow, but it's getting better every time.
Today: Shoulders/Light Legs
Military Press:(doing them out of a Squat Rack, first time in awhile so started a little light today)
Set 1: 95lbsx8
Set 2: 115lbsx8
Set 3: 135lbsx8
Set 4: 155lbsx6
Shoulder Fly's:
3 sets w/ 25lb dumbells(start with the dumbells just below my stomach then raise until arms are parallel with shoulders)
Shrugs:(Do w/ a Barbell, place chin on chest and raise shoulders straight up and down)
Set's 1 & 2: 135lbsx10
Set 2: 185lbsx10
Set 3: 225lbsx8
Light Legs:(First time doing squats in a couple of years, did 3 sets of 225lbs for 10 reps, after warming up w/ 135lbs for first set of 10 reps)
Leg Press(on a machine):
Set 1: half the stack 20 times
Set 2 & 3: full stack 20 times each
*not sure how much weight the machine is fairly old and the numbers are worn off*
Lol, the more I type this stuff out and write in my log I realize more and more each day that I need to join a better gym. Half of the stuff in the current one is broke down, or has been stolen. Including dumbells, curl bars, and weights, etc...
When our dues are up, I think my buddies and I are gonning to join another place, so it shouldn't be near as bad. Hopefully then I'll feel comfortable enough to start trying to go heavy on the squats(and deadlifts) again.
soldierbone, thanks for the encouraging words.
-vwshepherd
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2005/08/03, 04:26 PM
wrestler, what are some good rotator cuff exercises? I've seen some of the light dumbell exercise charts, and try to do them from time to time, but I have to admit that I don't get to them like I should.
What do you recommend?
Thanks in advance,
vwshepherd
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2005/08/04, 11:46 AM
There's a couple great article on the t-nation website that go into detail and have pictures of a few good exercises. Go to t-nation.com, and click on the search function. then search for Rotator Conundrum. Also, try "Shoulder the Load" for a few more exercise options. I used to have problems with my shoulders, and pulled one of my rotators in a game of rugby about 3 years ago, and then again about 6 months later. I started doing these exercises and my shoulders have been injury free ever since... Well, except for a few collarbone snaps, but how do you prevent that?
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/08/05, 02:04 PM
Aug. 4, Light Chest/Triceps
My Light Chest day consists of starting w/ 135lbs x10reps and going up to 275lbsx 6-8reps. Usually around 4-5 sets.
Triceps:
Close Grip Bench Press- start w/ 135lbs x 6reps, then increase up to 250lbs x 6 reps, usually around 4 sets here as well, 135,185,225,250.
Skull Crushers-(barbell), 4 sets of increasing weight each w/ 6reps.
Tricep Press Down- 3 sets of increasing weight 8reps each
Frech Press- 70-75lb dumbell 3 sets of 8 reps
wrestler, thanks for the info, I'll definately check it out
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2005/08/07, 08:06 PM
I've always heard that if you depend on alot of supplements and just stop then it would have a negative effect on your output as far as work in the gym.
I'm trying to stick more to a low carb diet which allows me to get alot of protein from my diet. But other than some Whey Protein Shakes on days that I don't feel that I get alot of protein from my diet, that's all I take as far as supplements go.
If I had to guess, I'd say that once you get back to your old diet and your supplements you should see gains pretty quick again.
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2005/08/08, 01:53 AM
no one said he was going to be on a 1500 calorie diet. that idea was already vetoed.
I would love to prove you wrong. I dropped 20 lbs last wrestling season while bringing up my maxes in the big three as well as increasing my conditioning level. It is not easy, and many people will say it can not be done. It takes more dedication than most people will ever be able to muster. It is a lifestyle, not an exercise program. You must sleep more, eat cleaner, stretch alot, eat at all the right times, and watch your nutritional intake like a hawk. But it CAN be done.
Also, he is not lifting to gain muscle. he is lifting mostly to maintain muscle while losing fat.
Also, weightlifting is the best way to exercise to lose weight, much better than cardio.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/08/08, 02:19 AM
Wrestler, I used to muster that same dedication back in the day. It is tough. I sucked weight for 1 season trying to make 189 when I was 215 my sophmore year in high school. That was when you could drop as many as 4 weight classes. I had teammates go from 175 during football season down to 145 during wrestling season. They ate 8 times a day. Half a grape fruit was 1 of those meals. It is definitely tough to be a wrestler...
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2005/08/08, 02:24 AM
Shep,
Keep me posted on how your workout goes. I want details!!!!! :)
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2005/08/08, 02:28 AM
diet should not be the first change unless exercise is not an option. Shep is changing his plan currently and a full blown diet change would not be beneficial. We'll change the diet 8-12 weeks from now. The big thing is to not add any calories to your diet. Drink a ton of water and eat 5 fruits a day. Those are the only changes you should make right now. Keep everything else the same. Trust me on this. Even some highly motivated Olympic athletes cannot do both at the same time in the beginning.
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2005/08/08, 07:43 PM
Tried the first day of the new workout today, much harder than I anticipated though gator.
I had to sub some "Light" Stiff Legged Deadlifts in the place of Back Hypers though. No bench in my current gym that I could do them off of. Used 135lbs. Hope that was okay.
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2005/08/09, 02:54 AM
Sounds good! I bet you were drenched in sweat when you were done. That work out is very metabolic.
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2005/08/09, 02:54 AM
Light RDLs sound good. Try goodmornings too.
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