|
2003/05/03, 10:02 PM
I just finished reading a nutrition book and learned that excess protein can flush calcium out of the system. Even the idol of male muscular development, Arnold Schwarzenegger, suggests that you only have about one gram of protein for every two pounds of body weight. Even for body building, you don't want more than 1 gram per 1.5 pounds of weight.
Also, many people think that when we do cardio, we use protein. This is not true. The body burns carbohydrates. When you lift weights, the body is using carbohydrates. The muscle repair is when protein is required.
It has been scientifically tested and concluded that the main cause of osteoporosis is excess protein. In Africa, the Bantu tribes only ingest 350 mg of calcium a day. The reason they don't get osteoporosis is because of their low protein intakes.
Just letting you guys know, don't go overboard on protein. You don't need that much.
|
|
|
|
2003/05/03, 10:21 PM
Is 200 grams per day too much for me?
--------------
We must become the change we want to see.
Ivan Montreal Canada (aka SpongeBob Square Pants to some!)
|
|
2003/05/03, 11:33 PM
Very interesting....Would you mind posting the title and author of that book so others can check it out?
--------------
OSU Law Rugby....specializing in personal injury and pain & suffering.
|
|
2003/05/04, 07:33 PM
I just finished reading a nutrition book and learned that excess protein can flush calcium out of the system.
****This is a misnomer. Many of those studies, which were done in the 70s and earlier, seemed to suggest that as more protein was ingested, the more calcium the kidneys had to release in order to buffer the acidic change in the pH balance of the blood stream, due to excess urea. However, more recent studies, over the last decade or so, have shown that a high protein intake, in and of itself, does not lend to calcium loss; there are many other factors that can, and do, increase this same risk, such as phosphorus levels. In fact, according to a recent Tufts University study, increasing protein intake may actually augment the effect of calcium and vitamin D supplementation in regards to a beneficial change in bone mineral density in the elderly, than those who supplemented with those two products alone.****
Also, many people think that when we do cardio, we use protein. This is not true. The body burns carbohydrates. When you lift weights, the body is using carbohydrates. The muscle repair is when protein is required.
****You are correct for the most part. The body does prefer to use carbs as fuel. However, in a desperate situation created by a deficiency of carbs, the body, in a very inefficient manner and process, will use digested proteins, as well as muscle tissue (catabolic) in order to create the necessary energy to maintain life.****
Hegsted, M., Schuette, S.A., Zemel, M.B., et al., "Urinary Calcium and Calcium Balance in Young Men as Affected by Level of Protein and Phosphorus Intake," Journal of Nutrition, 111(3), pages 553-562.
Spencer, H., Kramer, L., DeBartolo, M., et al., "Further Studies of the Effect of a High Protein Diet as Meat on Calcium Metabolism," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 37(6), pages 924-929.
Dawson-Hughes, B., Harris, S.S., "Calcium Intake Influences the Association of Protein Intake with Rates of Bone Loss in Elderly Men and Women," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 75(4), pages 773-779.
--------------
Michael
"Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!"
|
|
2003/05/04, 07:43 PM
Diet for a New America by John Robbins.
|
|
2003/05/04, 08:05 PM
Thanks for fielding that one Rev...there are so many people out there with some very old information from the dark ages that somehow is still circulating even today.
--------------
As far as genetics go, the skies the limit. You are limited only by your mental perception of it.
Ron
|
|
2003/05/04, 09:09 PM
Yes, thank you very much Rev. It's hard to beleive that these old school "myths" are still around, but oh well.
|
|
2003/05/07, 09:11 PM
So it happened in the 70's, but all of a sudden we changed? I just saw a website today that supported my original statement, actually...
|
|
2003/05/07, 09:20 PM
Not that we changed. But the quality control and depth of investigation done back then is no where near the level of most studies done today. It used to be thought, for example, that the primary reason humans breath is to take in oxygen; however, we now know that oxygen is secondary to getting rid of carbon dioxide first and foremost. Did are breathing change? No. But the intensity of our inquiries did.
--------------
Michael
"Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!"
|
|
2003/05/07, 10:22 PM
I'm not saying you are completely wrong vegetarianboy, but you can also find web sites that say the holocaust never happened. So basically don't beleive everything you read. With that said, 1gram of protein per pound of bodyweight seems excessive to me as well, but I am not a huge guy and maybe that's why haha.
|
|
2003/05/07, 11:36 PM
I think I will go eat a chicken breast, I have made so many gains in the last year taking in anywhere from 130 to 200 grams per day and I really believe that my high protein diet is keeping my diabetes on track. Right now I am taking in 200 grams per per day on a lean out. I want to save as much muscle as I can, I worked to hard to get it.
--------------
I will lift my own weight someday!!!!!
|
|
2003/05/08, 09:29 AM
So did this author ever look at our ancestors ancient man? They without a doubt had a high protein diet and they rarely if ever show signs of any calcium problems in the skeletons dug up. And as for me i have been eating more protein than most and my bones are stronger than yours vegetarianboy, hhmmm you are I guess a vegetarian? Maybe tht is why you want to believe taht we do not need as much protein as we say? LOL good luck!
--------------
deadlifts rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
2003/05/08, 11:12 AM
Mutt, I agree with you 10000%. And Deadlifts do rule!
|
|
2003/05/08, 04:12 PM
Well, I was going to respond here, but mutt has obviously taken care of it.
With new technology available every day, scientists today can make more accurate more informed observations. Mutt clearly indicated that the study was incomplete so to speak. You'll rarely hear anyone that's up on their info say anything about a relation between protein and calcium loss.
As far as Arnold -sure the guy is huge, but he's no scientist. I take everything he says with a grain of salt, whether it's for high protein consumption, or against. With the prevalence of steroids in pro bodybuilding, their diets are almost irrelevant. Those guys are the absolute last people I'd go to for nutritional advice.
I have a friend that took a nutrition class that was decidedly anti-meat. She now thinks that meat itself causes heart disease, rather than what's in it. Most knowledgeable folks know that it's the saturated fat that's the problem and not the meat itself. Those people would also tell you that trans fats are far worse and that many of the dangers of trans fats have been improperly attributed to saturated fat due to the prevalence of fast food in the American diet. Humans evolved as hunter gatherers with fairly high amounts of protein and moderate amounts of saturated fat in their diets.
Yes, carbohydrate is the body's primary energy source. However, most folks do cardio to lose fat. Once our carbohydrate stores have been used, the body switches to a fat burning/muscle burning energy process. Extra protein can help blunt the catabolic processes.
Honestly, I'd rather have the extra protein than extra carbs.
--------------
"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
|
|
2003/05/16, 08:05 PM
Mutt-
>So did this author ever look at our ancestors ancient man?
Yes. He actually did. There's this really neat thing going around called evolution. We also used to use sticks and rocks to kill animals and we grunted.
>They without a doubt had a high protein diet and they rarely if ever show signs of any calcium problems in the skeletons dug up.
Show me some evidence and I'll believe it. Also, the plants they ate are nothing like what we eat today, and had MUCH more calcium in them. American Indians still have over 2500-3000 mg/day of calcium just because of the plant matter they eat.
>And as for me i have been eating more protein than most and my bones are stronger than yours vegetarianboy,
Uhhhh, because you're fatter? If you could back that statement, I might believe it.
>hhmmm you are I guess a vegetarian?
Absolutely right.
>Maybe tht is why you want to believe taht we do not need as much protein as we say?
As who say? And no, that's not why. I believe this because of what I have learned reading nutrition books about excess protein.
>LOL good luck!
Glad you find it a laughing matter. Not sure what you're wishing me luck in... but I probably won't need it.
Tact is not a quality that you have an excess amount of, is it?
|
|
2003/05/17, 11:42 AM
You guys need to chill. Just because someone disgrees with you does not mean you need to resort to idiotic name calling. If you can't stay civil in your discussions, don't bother posting.
--------------
Michael
"Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!"
|
|
2003/05/17, 03:20 PM
Rev, again you are absolutely right. That is why this is called a discussion board. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how anyone else feels about it. It should be kept discussed on a professional level. After all,is that not what we pride ourselves to be, or at least learning to be? This is a great group here on FT, lets keep it that way.
--------------
As far as genetics go, the skies the limit. You are limited only by your mental perception of it.
Ron
|
|
2003/05/19, 10:31 AM
Oh my goodness Lets look at this shall we? MY bones are stronger than anyone I know i have never broken a bone yet, and that is because i am fatter? Where may one ask did you get that bit of information? And what plants did they eat that had that much more calcium? What plants are those do you know. I do know they ate a much hihger protein and fat diet, I studied it for 4 years. They did eat a lot of berries, roots etc, but they also ate a lot more of protein. I think before you slam me you might want to get more proof than one book, and by the way the LOL was not meant in a bad way if you took it that way I am sorry. But I have met many such as your self and they never understand protein. I am not saying you are worng for eating the way you do , but for a vegan to tell one such as myself that I eat too much protein, it is kind of funny.
by the way that fatter remark was uncalled for. I am a big guy so what grow up, your views in that post were going to cause a few replys knocking it. Deal!
--------------
deadlifts rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
2003/05/19, 11:30 AM
Ouch :o(
You know.....I really don't have any other comment to make besides...Let's drop this if we can't have a discussion that won't escalate into unnecessary insults.
OK? <weak smile>
|
|
2003/05/19, 11:37 AM
I am done, sorry but that remark hit me at the wrong time LOL!
--------------
deadlifts rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
2003/05/19, 11:52 AM
I know how that feels....
We all do at some point <smile>
Let it go...He doesn't know you....You don't know him..
He could have been having a bad day too.
So we don't always work off the same page- :o) and the world still turns <LOL>
|
|
2003/05/21, 07:22 PM
I do not see the need to one up people here or name call or signify in any way. We are all indivduals with different goals in dealing with our physical bodies and self image. Also we all have different genetics and medical conditions. I for one am hypothyroid and a lot of new info out there supports higher ratios of proteins to carbs for my condition. In my personal experience , I have to agree. People with blood sugar problems should pay attention to this ratio too. I enjoy carbs and do eat complex ones and occasional "no nos" too. So arrest me.... I have seen many vegetarinas who are healthy and many who are not. You can make bad choices not eating meat as well as bad choices eating meat. How we prepare our foods and portion sizes count too as I am sure you all know. Physical activity may dictate diet as well. A runner will need more carbs, a person who does weights needs more protein. But whatever our diet choices are, I think we should choose good foods and prepare them in interesting and healthy ways. I like the fact of trading recepies and ideas with food and research info given. That is what these boards should be for. NOt for being right or put downs. Remember there are a lot of lifestyles being represented here I am sure and we all seem to have a common interest and goal in our diets and staying healthy. (off the soapbox now)
|
|
2003/05/21, 10:49 PM
Vegetarianboy......
I am 5'7 170 lbs, in your opinion (and no more than that)how much protein according to your facts should I consume in my 15hr day? I'm not challenging you, just curious!
--------------
You can walk to anywhere you want, it only takes time.
Ivan Montreal Canada (aka SpongeBob Square Pants to some!)
|
|
2003/05/24, 07:30 PM
It is not likely that a consensus will be reached any time soon on this discussion. This is not due to a lack of information, but due to the low-fat, low-cholesterol dietary dogma that has monopolized nutritional thinking for the last 50 years. Then there was the promoted low fat high carb diet. Read, learn, look, listen. Educate yourselves.
--------------
As far as genetics go, the skies the limit. You are limited only by your mental perception of it.
Ron
|
|
2003/05/27, 02:34 PM
If high protein diets cause such a calcium deficiency, leading to osteoporosis, wouldn't we be reading more about all of the oldschool bodybuilder breaking their hips by now?
I think you need to consider that while excess protein intake may cause some calcium flushing, most studies have been done on sedentary individuals, not athletes.
Also, strength training and cardio that is weight bearing build bone density.
Another thing to consider is that you are taking in quite a bit of calcium if you are using whey protein as a supplement.
Calcium is very importnant for many actions in your body, but compared to the general public, weightlifters and athletes probably consume quite a bit more of it without even planning to.
Current experimental data - performed on athletes - shows a dietary intake of 1.5 - 2.0 g/kg/day to be beneficial. (Sports Supplements, Antonio and Stout, 2001) That is about 1 - 1.5g/lb/day.
Since your body doesn't overdose, per say, on protein it is probably okay to be a little higher.
And again, I say it "If you want to know how to get leaner and grow more muscles, look to who does it best - Bodybuilders. And how do they eat?" There is your answer.
--------------
Challenge + Consistency = Results
|
|
2003/06/05, 10:30 PM
Whoa! you guys sure get a little aggressive up in here. I think the important point to remember about this discussion group is that everyone means well, and vegetarianboy just wanted to share with us what he learned. We should FIRST thank someone for the sharing of information, then comment on his/her ideas. Mutt, i think veg got a little pissed when u said u got better bones than him. That statement assumes superiority over another, and it really is not called for. I know u're a big guy (u can probably bench a LOT more than i do), and even tho u think u got strong bones (which i no doubt would believe), it doesn't mean u can just go around telling others u're stronger than them.
As for the excess protein comment, i'm a little concerned about possible kidney problems resulting from excessive protein. Does drinking more water help?
|
|
2003/06/05, 11:31 PM
A recent study published in Toxicology in Vitro found that whey protein may play a role in prostate cancer prevention. For more information please visit http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/65/72804.htm
Good News of the name of Whey!!!!!!!!
--------------
I will lift my own weight someday!!!!!
THE NATURAL WAY IS THE ONLY TRUE PATH TO SUCCESS, PRIDE, JOY, HAPPINESS, LONG TERM FULFILLMENT AND SELF-ESTEEM!
|
|
2003/06/14, 03:49 AM
Just wanted to add one last thing - Carbs have only been a major player in the human diet for about 10,000 years, since the advent of agriculture (previous to that, hunting game was the easiest means of acquiring sufficient foods, since gathering fruits and vegetables was more time consuming and yielded smaller volumes of food). Ten thousand years is not nearly long enough for the human body to evolve to a style of diet.
--------------
"Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters!"
-- Bob Dylan
|
|
2004/03/20, 08:37 PM
bump
|
|
2007/02/13, 11:47 AM
bump
|
