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2004/03/20, 01:39 AM
Im a pre-med student and just recently I've been learning more and more about nutrition.
About protein intake the 'normal' male/female needs only 0.8 grams of protein per KG of body weight (not lbs). And if you exercise that need is elevated but not as high as people think. I would recommend 1 gram of protein per KG of body weight. Excessive protein can be very harmful. Out of carbs, fats, and proteins, protein is the only macronutrient that contains Nitrogen in its chemical build up, and for that reason is damaging to the body. After protein metabolism u have Ammonia created which is very toxic to the body and very soluble. Ur kdineys and liver work to convert that ammonia to urea which is then excreted. So excessive protein intake makes ur liver and kidneys work harder and take more damage. Too much animal protein can lead to atherosclerosis, bone mineral loss, kidney & liver problems, and increased cardio vascular disease. And if u take more protein than you really need ur also wasting your $.
One thing you can do, since we all love protein, drink lots of water. The more dilute the urine the better for ur kidneys. But be careful not to drink too much water cause u can get rid of ur water soluble vitamins and can put u at risk of developing a deficincy for the vitamins.:surprised:
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2004/03/20, 08:40 AM
Then why don't more bodybuilders experience kidney/liver problems?
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"To be able to go to the gym and train hard is a joy and a privelege, even though the hard work necessitates driving yourself through considerable discomfort. Savor this privelege and blessing, and revel in it."
Stuart McRobert, Beyond Brawn
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2004/03/20, 09:54 AM
I have a few questions on top of asimmers
1. define "excessive" protein
2. define "too much" water
3. this research, is it consider a normal person or those who are actively trying to gain muscle and bodybuild?
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There is no substitute for hard work
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2004/03/20, 10:25 AM
Recent research indicates that there are no concerns for people with healthy kidneys/liver.
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2004/03/20, 02:44 PM
No offense to SRZ, but that is such a typical doctors answer. Although, I am running into more and more doctors that do not beleive in the whole to much protein is bad idea. And, you would have to be drinking A LOT of water to drink to much since it used for EVERY action within the body.
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2004/03/23, 04:58 AM
There is always a lot of talk about high protein diets being bad for your kidneys etc, but I'am yet to read 1 case study that proves such a notion, however I have read numerous case studies on the benefits of a high protein diet, some benefits which include but not limited to, more lean mass and less Body Fat. If there is any proof behind too much protein is bad, than I would like to hear\see it. :big_smile:
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2004/03/27, 05:50 AM
But my next concern is about animal protein. Now it that directly from meats only? Or do protein shakes which consists of animal products that have been powderized considered animal proteins? I eat a lot of meat every day and have at least one protein drink a day. So what is this animal protein to be? And what other sorts of proteins are good out there that are not made from animals that can still aid in muscle building.
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There can be miracles when you believe
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2004/03/27, 04:59 PM
Are there any bodybuilders who goes by .08g or 1g per kg? Just like to know if the 1g-1.5g per 1 lbs is really essential to be able to build the muscles or its really possible to build more.
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2004/03/28, 02:47 AM
Chris
Animal proteins will come from animal sources, yes, meats, poultry etc. About the protein shakes im not too sure. Next week an athletics nutrition specialist is comming to talk to my class and i'll ask if protein shakes will contain animal proteins, plant or both. And your last question, other sources of non animal proteins are vegetables. Beans are really good sources of protein, broccoli, corn, all sorts. But many of the vegetables do not contain all essential and non essential amino acids so combination foods would be a good idea. What are combination foods? for example: eating beans, corn, peas etc together apart of a meal and each will contribute its own amino acids to complete your needs. The advantage of animal proteins though is that they provide all the amino acids you need. So whats the main point? Combination combination combination!
Hellscream:
I actually asked about your concern before. It is a myth that the more protein you concume the more muscle you will build. Your body will excrete extra protein when it has all that it needs and its daily amounts are met.
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2004/03/28, 04:06 AM
Most powders are made from whey. Which is a bi product of the making of cheese. Cheese is made from milk which is a animal product. Animal proteins unless you are a stout vegan are the most complete. Dont worry about to much animal protein in your diet. Worry about not getting enough.
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I am that
which must be feared, worshipped and adored. The world is mine
now and forever.No one holds command over me. No man. No god. I am a beast and that is enough.
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2004/03/28, 10:53 AM
One simple way to find out....try it by the "standard" and see where you end up.:big_smile::cool:
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Quoting from Hellscream:
Are there any bodybuilders who goes by .08g or 1g per kg? Just like to know if the 1g-1.5g per 1 lbs is really essential to be able to build the muscles or its really possible to build more.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/03/30, 02:26 PM
if you work out hard it will take you a lot longer to build the muscle if you are only taking a gram per kg... i think if you drink plenty of water a gram per lb is good if maintaining and maybe 1.3 g to 1.5 g per lb if you are trying to gain weight. i dont know, i weight 175 and take in about 225 g's of protein per day, and drink plenty of water... i do think the atkins diet is bad, as i also get about 600 g's of carbs, though very few after 830 pm. i'm no expert, and im only 20, but over the past couple of years i have experimented with a lot of different stuff and am still learning, and feel that so far the 1.2 or so per lb of bodyweight is best for me. i had a nutrition professor here tell me that i should only take in about .8 to 1 per kg as well... he was a good swimmer but he was 110 pounds soaking wet, and most of us on the board want to get bigger. i haven't seen any terrible evidence of protein use, though i can see where it would be a problem if you were extremely crazy about it...also helps to spread it out over the day. wow thats the longest post i think ive ever wrote.
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2004/03/30, 03:41 PM
lol bb1 Id rather not, theres no worser feeling than knowing your efforts went to waste :)
I usually go by 0.8-1.0g per lbs. I find it impossible to take in more with the curent situation right now. I been making good gains so Im not too bothered right now, gonna try to up it to 1.5g soon as I move out. I hope not being able to get my 1.5g isnt undermining my gains too much right now though.:big_smile:
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2004/03/30, 04:57 PM
Man, I am about 176 right now, and I am taking in about 410 grams of protein, PER DAY! I have no problems and have had my diet this way for a few years now. I know that none of my protein is going to waste. I laugh at the little skinny doctors and diet "gurus" that blab about how unhealthy a high protein intake may be. That's okay, because I'll just keep on getting bigger, a big wolf among little sheep.:dumbbell:
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2004/03/30, 10:04 PM
dahayz, you are so sassy:)
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If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
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2004/03/31, 07:05 AM
:big_smile:
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2004/03/31, 09:39 AM
So, for somebody (like myself) who wants to loose weight, does protein intakes matters if you consume more than what is recommended?
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2004/03/31, 03:34 PM
Fill out your profile so we can help you better, and yes, protein intake does matter, a high protein diet can aid in weight loss.
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2004/03/31, 03:44 PM
Dahayz right on with that one!
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"A will finds a way, failure is not an option"
Ivan
carivan@freetrainers.com
Montreal Canada
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2004/04/02, 09:37 AM
Personally, over the years of experimenting and researching I have come to this conclusion. This is a bit different than maybe some folks advocate, but I believe from an honest and true standpoint, this will do it and not "overdue" anyone on any one nutrient, thus preventing much unwanted fat. Set your protein at 1.2-1.5 gr. per lb. of bodyweight per day. This is each and every day, a steady supply never stopping. This should be plenty for everyone, special circumstances not included(contest dieting, etc. where of course protein needs drastically increase). Ok, now carbs are your variable. What I mean by that is that they need to be adjusted according to your intensity, energy expenditure, etc. I suggest taking 1/3 your lean bodyweight, and multiplying it by how many times you work out per week hard. For example, if you are trying to gain, you may be doing one muscle group per day, 5 days per week, one hour per session. This is an optimal way to train for mass. So, take 1/3 your bodyweight times 5(5 hours in the gym), and this will give you your carb intake for the days of working out. On days off, adjust your carbs downward as needed, all the while keeping your protein coming in of course. Remember, carbs are protein sparing, so the more carbs you are taking in, the less protein you need to do its job as your body can fully utilize the protein (for muscle building instead of glucose and every other function), as it is getting all its other nutrients needed from carbs(we are talking good, clean carbs here like from my list). This protocol will go a long ways toward keeping those nasty love handles at bay, and make for a more sensible diet also. Remember, an excess of any nutrient, no matter protein, carb or fat can and will lead to extending of adipose tissue. Even with protein, there is a "spillover" point,not as drastic as carbs of course, but still. So, if you take a "dynamic" approach to your diet, adjusting daily as needed, rather than a set number of calories to go by, I believe it will go far as to putting on muscle much better and easier with very little fat. Take in fact the "hard gainer". There really is no such thing, this is just someone with an improperly designed diet for them. Eating tons of protein will not necessarily get you tons of muscle, if you do not have adequate other nutrients, most of the protein will have to go to sustaining life. This in fact is the goal of your body, not to look good at the beach. The body is very smart, and will break down amino acids very quickly to do what it needs to survive, and yes learn to store fat (from the protein spillover) also due to this for survival.:dumbbell:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/04/02, 11:03 AM
Right on with that one bb1.:dumbbell:
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2004/04/02, 11:54 AM
Yes those body builders will have kidney problems. Just wait till they 45-50, and they have kidney failure. To say, 1-1.25 grams is optimal is a farce. So a guy who weighs 200lbs should be intaking 250 grams of protein. No. I have a background in nutrition science and high protein intake can be harmful. Everyone is different and the body reacts differently. Some people can break down protein quicker than other also. I'd check with your doctor before you start listening to people who think they know everything (bb1fit that would be you).
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2004/04/02, 12:26 PM
Well, if you check my profile, you will see I happen to be 52. There goes your first argument. I am in the best health of my life, and getting ready to compete again in May. How about you? Protein contains the building blocks of muscle tissue! Without adequate amounts, you will not gain. Iyes this is me. I say post your research, back up your claims. Not with psuedo science, but with real, scientific studies. Your point as to some folks can break down protein quicker than others may in fact be so, but so what? This just simply has a steady supply of amino acids in the bloodstream. This also is a good thing. As long as you are getting a balanced diet, all other adequate nutrients including healthy EFA's, 1-1.5 gr. of protein is more than adequate and will do absolutely no harm.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/04/02, 12:51 PM
cl909.....:big_smile:I don't see Joe weider or lou ferrigno having any kidney problems! I wouldn't mind have thier health when I reach there age. Weider used to be the king of supplementation!:big_smile::big_smile:
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"A will finds a way, failure is not an option"
Ivan
carivan@freetrainers.com
Montreal Canada
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2004/04/02, 01:45 PM
I guess vegetarians cant be bodybuilders then, eh :) BTW bb1, how long have you been bodybuilding? if u dont mind me askin.
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2004/04/02, 03:13 PM
c1909,
I also have a background in Nutrition Science, as do many of the CSCS certified trainers I know. As do many of the doctors and trainers who write the up-to-date books on Sports Nutrition and upplementation.
Given an athlete's higher intake of water, barring any kidney disease, they should have no problem with higher intakes of protein.
" There has been considerable debate regarding the protein needs of athletes. Initially it was recommended that athletes do not need to ingest more than the RDA for protein (i.e., 0.8 10 1.0g/kg/day for children, adolescents, and adults). However, research over the last decade has indicated that athletes engaged in intense training need to ingest 1.5 - 2 times the RDA of protein in their diet (1.5 - 2.0g/kg/day) to maintain protein balance.
If an insufficient amount of protein is obtained from the diet, an athlete will maintain a negative nitrogen balance which can increase protein catabolism and slow recovery.Over time this may lead to lean muscle wasting and training intolerance." Sports Supplements, Jose Antonio, PHD, CSCS and Jeffrey R. Stout, PHD, CSCS
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2004/04/02, 03:29 PM
" During training and competition, endurance athletes need about .75grams of protein per pound of bodyweight per day - 1.2 to 1.4/kg of bodyweight - to maintain a positive nitrogen balance and to promote muscle recovery and growth." "Chad Coy..research and development director for Human Development Technologies and is ranked among the top strong men. His ideal diet follows these guidelines:...Protein should make up 30 to 40 percent of the total calories." "The football player's preseason diet follows the same distribution of macro-nutrients as the strongman's year-round training diet...Protein 40-45 percent of calories, or 1.5grams per pound of bodyweight" Diets designed fro Athletes, Maryann Karinch
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2004/04/02, 03:42 PM
"Recent studies using metabolic-tracer and nitrogen-balance technologies have shown that the overall protein and specific amino acid requirements are higher for individuals in training than for normaly active people. The role of protein differs for endurance and stregth training athletes. it appears that strength training individuals need up to 1.5 to 2.25 times the RDa, or 1.4 to 1.8g of protein per kg of bodyweight, whereas endurance athletes need 1.2 to 1.4g of protein per kg of bodyweight. Whereas endurance exercise places greater demand on protein as an auxiliary fuel, strength training requires additional amino acids as the building blocks for muscle development.
Studies of college men revealed that those who engaged in a month of weight training and followed diets containing either 0.8g or 2.4g of protein per kg of bodyweight each day retained more protein than a group of men who followed the same diet but did not train....Only the group on the higher-protein diet significantly increased fat-free body mass." Physiology of Sports and Exercise, Jack H. Wilmore & David L. Costill (this is ione of my college textbooks).
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If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
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2004/04/02, 05:07 PM
hey thanks for the professional advise... I guess people only listen to what they want to.... if anyone has any other professional advise I would appreciate it.
thanks
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2004/04/02, 06:40 PM
You go asimmer!!!!:big_smile::big_smile::dumbbell::big_smile::big_smile:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/04/02, 06:46 PM
Oh, and hellscream, there are some vegetarian bodybuilders, but it is more challenging. And why would you want to not eat steak:(
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If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
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2004/04/02, 07:22 PM
wow, how is that possible assimer? I mean even supplements would contain animal protein right? Their only source for protein would be soy and I dont think its possible to go at it by that alone. Or is it?
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2004/04/02, 07:26 PM
Most vegetarian protein sources are lacking in one or more essential amino acid, rendering them unuseable. So, combining is in order. For instance, legumes(beans, peas, peanuts, lentil, tofu) combined with most grains, cereals and breads will make a complete protein. Or seeds and nuts and milk are complimentary for instance. Rice with sesame is another good combo.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/05/04, 03:52 PM
Oops ... I was not logged on when I posted the above reply.
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2004/05/23, 01:47 PM
almatoo, I am sorry no one responded to your last question - at 120 lbs, with a fast metabolism, you need minimum 1,800 calories, but probably more like 2,300. 30% protein would be 135 - 172g protein daily. Add some protein shakes in and you will get your intake up fairly painlessly.
I am making this post a sticky because it is a good discussion.
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If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
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2004/05/28, 10:00 AM
Sports science update: Protein and performance
By Matt Fitzgerald
PoweringMuscles.com
5/26/2004
A remarkable new study could change the way athletes fuel their bodies during training and competition.
In the forthcoming July issue of Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, researchers at James Madison University report powerful evidence that consuming a modest amount of protein in a sports drink during exercise can increase endurance, reduce muscle damage, and enhance recovery.
Fifteen male cyclists completed a stationary ride to exhaustion while drinking either a conventional sports drink containing 7.3% carbohydrate (Gatorade) or a sports drink containing an equal amount of carbohydrate plus 1.8% protein (Accelerade).
The following day, the cyclists completed a second ride to exhaustion at a higher intensity, this time without drinking anything. Before they began the second ride, a blood sample was taken and its concentration of creatine phosphokinase (CPK) was measured. CPK is a biomarker of muscle damage.
Two weeks later, this whole procedure was repeated with one change. The cyclists who had been randomly assigned to drink the carbohydrate sports drink in the first trial received the carbohydrate-protein drink in the second trial, and those who received the combined drink in the first trial received the carbohydrate drink in the second.
The results will be of great interest to all athletes. On average, the subjects were able to cycle 29% longer in the first ride and 40% longer in the second ride when given the carbohydrate-protein drink during the first ride than they were when given the drink without protein.
In addition, the carbohydrate-protein drink was found to reduce CPK levels by 83%, indicating significantly less muscle damage.
While the differences are clear, the precise reasons for these differences have not yet been determined. The authors of the study noted that while the carbohydrate-protein drink had more total calories than the carbohydrate drink, the additional calories in the former could account for no more than 12% of the differences in performance.
Also, scientists have long known that simply adding more carbohydrate to a sports drink does not make it more effective. There seems to be a special synergy between carbohydrate and protein.
Researchers at a few universities are now trying to figure out exactly how the addition of protein to a sports drink increases endurance, reduces muscle damage, and accelerates recovery.
In the meantime, as an athlete, you don't need to know why it works -- it's enough just to know that it does!
Copyright 2004 by Poweringmuscles. Published with permission. For cutting-edge sports nutrition info, visit www.poweringmuscles.com.
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2004/06/04, 11:15 AM
ewww too much protein damages livers...maybe i'll reduce my eggs per day from 6 down to 4
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2004/06/04, 02:54 PM
no, it probably doesn't. Read the rest of this post.
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If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
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2004/06/06, 08:44 AM
Ive personally never taken anything my docters said about training seriously. When i first started taking supplements my mom made me go to the docter to see what everything was doing to me. The docter taol me all this jazz about protein then said that the creatine i was taking actually did nothing and that any gains i was seeing were all mental. So i went on the internet when i got home and looked up research papers on it. turns out every study done on creatine supported the fact that it will lead to strength gains. anyway i think docters should stay a bit more up to date on stuff like that before wipping out advice
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2004/06/07, 12:55 AM
Awesome!!! If God didn't intend for us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of delicious meat. Besides, a freezer full of tofu will not provide you with a beautiful rug like a freezer full of bear steaks will.
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Quoting from asimmer:
And why would you want to not eat steak:(
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2004/06/07, 12:56 AM
Message deleted by moderator due to unsuitable content for this board.
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2004/06/08, 09:10 PM
ursusarktos - I want some bearskins and meat!!!
It is sadly disappointing how little my doctor seems to know or understand about fitness and bodybuilding. Doctors tend to be very narrow-minded when it comes to what they learn and different research.
ursusarktos - that is one of my favorite bumperstickers (If we aren't supposed eat animals, why are they made out of meat?)!!!
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If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
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2004/06/09, 10:24 AM
Well then, you need to make your way up to Manitoba in September or May. There's no shortage of bears in Canada & Manitoba is well known for having some of the largest blackbears in the world. If enough aren't taken during the hunting seasons, then the # of nuisance bears that are killed by wildlife officials (which go to waste) skyrockets.
As for the level nutrition training a physician receives I know it is very limited with the local university's medical program. It's just not seen by the curriculum organizers as 'core' medicine. And maybe it isn't - but both the doctor's and their patients need to understand that it isn't their are of expertise. The doctors should be willing to refer to those who are extensively trained in sports nutrition.
One more thing, then I'll stop ranting (before the PETAfiles flip out). I am very respectful of all animals, especially bears and other animals I hunt & eat. My handle ursusarktos refers to the polar bear, which Manitoba is famous for. I strongly believe in animal welfare, yet thoroughly detest the concept of 'animal rights'.
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2004/06/18, 03:18 PM
i gotta tell you guys, the best tasting protein i've ever had is 100 percent optimum whey (chocolate) its pretty cheap too 23.99 on advantagesupplements.com and a little higher on bodybuilding.com and dpsnutrition.com.... do you guys know any better ones or better prices???
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2004/07/08, 12:11 AM
I know this is an old post, but what the heck......
I've heard that taking whey protein supplements on days off training is a waste and does nothing for gains. I thought that i should always maintain a high protein diet everyday seeing as my body/muscles are recovering on the days off.
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2004/07/12, 09:51 AM
you are right, i don´t think it is a waste since this is the day when you are getting bigger. althou this is when you don´t need fast protein like whey protein because you dont exercise. you are not worried abou taking your shake inmediately after your workout. maybe in this case it is "a waste" because you can reach your daily personal protein intake with food.
i hope it helps..
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2004/07/30, 10:53 AM
SRZrasoul, you are taking a class to learn this? i just picked up a fitness book and learned all this, and i was only 14 when i did. for bodybuilding you need about 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight. and drink lots of water is common sense.
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I cut down trees
I eat my lunch
I go to the la-va-tree
On Wednesdays I go shopping,
and have buttered scones for tea.
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2004/08/10, 02:45 AM
whats the point in taking in extra protein if it isnt going to benefit you anyway? But it is more than 1g per kg of bodyweight.
If you take the amount your meant to with your bodyweight everyday, you are going to get the same benefits as you would if you double that intake.
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2004/08/14, 05:33 PM
I am in better shape than any doctor I know!
ps how many doctors of neutrition share the stage with you bb1 when your compeiting.
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2004/08/27, 04:53 PM
someone please clear something up for me. some say 1 gram of protein per kilo of body weight other say 1 gram per pound. well people which is it? I am a little confused
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