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2005/08/19, 10:50 AM
Ok, it had to happen sometime.
I personally have mixed opinion on gear. I think it is a good thing when it is properly limited. I don't think there is any reason for anythign other than a single ply shirt in the bench, and a single ply poly suit for squatting. I have lots of respect for guys like sebastian burns of metal militia and dave tate of westside, guys that know there equipment and how to get the most out of it. However, I have as much respect for guys like Captain Kirk, lifting some amazing numbers all throughout his career and continuing to lift now raw with some awesome lifts.
You are always going to hear someone say a shirt is cheating, and a suit is cheap. Well in the words of Dave Tate, "Cheating. Cheating at what? Last time I checked..." shirts were legal in nationally recognized powerlifting federation.
However, I feel that all of the different federation need to better regulate, limit if you will, the degree that equipment is allowed. When we see triple ply shirts wrapped around the elbows, I don't care if it is a gym lift, it isn't a 1005lb bench.
Also, I have great respect for the one lift that is still somewhat "raw": the deadlift. The day I see straps in a deadlifting competition will indeed be a sad day, as straps are the one piece of equipment i disagree with the most. If you cant even hold a weight, then you can't lift it.
Thats why deadlifting competitions as a specialty are becoming more popular.
I leave this discussion with this: If powerlifting is ever to become an olympic sport, and the olympic comittee has been looking at it, then powerlifting will need to be raw, as the International Olympic Committee and whoever else regulates the olympics are negatively disposed towards gear of any sort.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/08/19, 12:35 PM
One thing that has to be said is that you are not going to take a lifter tha benchs 250 put a suit on him and BAM he is benching 500. Even the guys that use the suits take at the very least months if not years to get the suit right. I personally do not want to wear a suit or other things but that is me. If someone wants to use that stuff all the more power to him. Even wearing a suit a 1000lb bench is still not going to be seen by guys slapping a suit on.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/08/19, 12:42 PM
wrestler....let me put it this way.....I see nothing wrong with gear because it's part of the sport(whether it's 1 ply shirt or 20 ply shirt that allows 2000lb bench press)...just the way it is....it's like complaining in boxing that you're not allowed to use your feet....don't like it? switch to martial arts where you can(kick boxing, kung fu, karate, million other sports)....I can see your frustration no doubt here....although in competition straps should remain illegal....but in practice...sometimes they can become very helpful in deadlifting(especially for bodybuilding)....I mean my grip so far is about 200lb behind...and my back would be lagging by this amount....in return lagging my legs....and everything else....I mean if you're not training to compete straps are a useful tools( I am sure i will have bunch of people disagree with me on this...but I nevertheless feel this way)....
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2005/08/19, 02:41 PM
gear is always part of a sport, however when you are in competition everything must be equal. Hense I don't think even 1 ply suits should be allowed. The boxing analogy is more like the size of the gloves versus using your legs. There are various weighted gloves for training, however when in competion, both parties have identically weight gloves.
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2005/08/19, 04:49 PM
Well you can agrue this all day....some will be for some will be against.
I think as long as your not covering a weakness up, and can get stronger by it ...go for it.
I mean a raw bench of 750 to 800lb....that to me is pretty good....and geting close to the "limit" of a natural human being......unless they weigh 500+ lbs.
Straps to me, rob the deadlift of the key thing.....grip....that HAS to be strong....period. To me thats like saying a partial squat is still a squat.
Saem for "bodybuilding" dls.....where you "bounce" at the bottom.
First word of deadlift.....is DEAD.....meaning dead weight....standing still, no momemtum etc.
And if your bouncing and using straps....you need a swift kick in the ass.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
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2005/08/19, 04:54 PM
another add on.....1plys etc. to me.....i'd wear it more for safty reasons.....not just to add number to my bench.....bench shirts aren't magical....you still need to be strong to use one. A guy benching 225......won't put one on and max 500......just don't happen.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
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2005/08/19, 05:35 PM
personally, i dont like the idea of gear, but then again i've always lifted for myselft and never for a competition. however if i were to lift in one, you'd almost have to get one considering the rules just to even the playing field.
bigandrew, i agreed with you right up to the very end of your post. straps for dl's not good, no doubt. the shirt however, there are just too many guys putting one on after doing a 400lb press for 1 rep, then putting on their shirt and getting up to around 550-600lbs at least according to their workout posts.
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2005/08/19, 09:03 PM
Still, the shirt only helps with the bottom half.....they still have to lock out the weight......and still pause at the bottom. Still need to partial at least 600lbs
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
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2005/08/19, 09:14 PM
Would a football player play without a helmet?
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2005/08/19, 10:11 PM
dont get me wrong fellas, im not saying you guys are wrong by any means. im only saying for my own needs a shirt seems to be a way to cheat for numbers. but as far as bringing the bar down to their chests, some of the guys i've talked to personally told me that it was a chore just to pull the weight down to their chest causing almost a spring type effect. now with that im referring to the high-end bench shirts($200-$300). but as i said, if i were to ever to attempt any kind of competition i'd have to either find a completely raw event of buy a shirt. which just goes to show our next point. if you don't like the rules to certain competition then find one that suits you. i suppose it's all about personal choices.
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2005/08/19, 10:25 PM
Usually this argument is started by people that are slightly threatened by people who squat or bench more. I believe that, yes, support gear helps. Some support gear helps more than others. But don't try to minimalize people's effort because they wear support gear. It still takes great efforts to squat what those guys at Westside barbell squat. The guys who squat over 1000lbs can still do reps with 750-800lbs without gear. The support gear also helps keep guys healthy when they are going after a PR. If the rules of a competition allow support gear then why not use it? I am a raw lifter but I still use a pair of viking metal briefs when my left hip acts up. Is that cheatting? I get a great workout and my raw PRs go up while I stay healthy.
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2005/08/19, 10:41 PM
Menace, I have no problem with gear. I am actually for it, as it makes the training more intriquite and it does help for protection. I lift raw, but when I start to hit some big numbers, I may wear a shirt, if only for the protection against pec tears. However, I cant use a shirt to help me get more punching power in a fight or a MMA bout. It all depends on your goals.
Like Dave Tate says... "Cheating at what..."
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/08/19, 10:47 PM
the word "cheated" was a bad choice on my part. as far as that goes I use a pair of Inzer Wrist Wraps in the only federation that I've found that has a competition close to my location that is considered gear. and i know what your saying, if i guy cand do 650lbs in a shirt, i have no doubt they can bench well over 400lbs for reps without.
all i was really trying to get across is that unless you plan on lifting for a competition of some sort, what use is a bench shirt? the shorts make perfect sense, especially in your case gator(hip). i have no problem with any gear, i'm just sayng that i personally dont use anything other than wraps. which was the point of the original post, or so i thought.
also i suppose that IF i ever get to the point to where i can press out over 400lbs for 5 reps or so raw, id consider a shirt, but more out of curiosity than anything.
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2005/08/19, 10:47 PM
also, you guys have made some great points. That was the point of me starting this topic.
Yes, sometimes even getting a weight to touch in a shirt is difficult. That is why those not already strong enough to hit some big numbers won't benefit from a shirt. A lot of people think that just because the shirt helps the bottom portion of the lift, that a geared lifter can just train their lockout. this couldn't be further from the truth. the guys at metal militia dedicate half their training to training the lower end. And westside trains to lift with enough speed from the bottom portion so that they can lockout the weight.
Also, whether or not its in a shirt, at the top of that lift, that weight is raw. Thats why even if I don't agree with lifts like Gene Rychlak's 1005lb bench, I still have a lot of respect for him just because he held over half a ton in his hands. That commands respect.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/08/19, 10:56 PM
no doubt, sometimes a situation not deserves respect, it demands it
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2005/08/20, 07:08 PM
This is like you said vw....if yoru not benching enough weight then the shirt will no help you. Theres a guy on here I forgot his name, he has a shirt but he only has a max of only like 350.....and can't touch his chest......to get the maxiam workout from this.....it needs to touch your chest......so unless you doing 400+ a shirt I don't think would help.
Also think of it this way.....yes the shirt helps your muscles......btu it doesn't help your nervous system.....nervous system is what dictacts what "heavy" and not. If your max is 400lbs....on bench....when you start getting around 375 and up......thats "heavy"......but say you put on a shirt....and can rep 430 3 or 4 times.....your nervous system is like now this is heavy. Go back to the 400 shirt less........that won't "feel" as heavy in your hands.
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Friends don't let friends squat high...
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2005/08/23, 12:36 PM
I thought powerlifting was an Olympic Sport.... Maybe I just saw something else or something.
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2005/08/23, 06:54 PM
no powerclean, and snatch are. Olympic lifting
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Friends don\'t let friends squat high...
People don\'t reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/08/23, 10:49 PM
Yes. But lately there has been alot of talk about adding powerlifting to the olympics. However, if it is added, then it will have to be sans gear.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/08/24, 12:58 AM
Ye abut.. the "cleaners" where knees wraps and wrist wraps......this is concendered" gear " is it not?
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Friends don\'t let friends squat high...
People don\'t reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/08/24, 01:21 AM
the only federation that holds competitions close to where i live consider wraps gear. i was under the impression that alot of organizations consider wraps and a belt still part of the raw division, and that shirts were considered the assisted division....i could be wrong though....i've never lifted competitively...
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2005/08/24, 01:29 AM
its considered protective. since the catch and knee bend is usally the easy part after cleaning, it doesn't have as much effect as you would think.
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2005/08/24, 03:20 PM
i should have made myself more clear, i meant wrist wraps
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2005/08/25, 10:10 AM
Straps are not allowed in Olympic lifting. There are actually more of a hinderance than a help. They prevent one from fully getting their elbows through on a clean.
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2005/08/25, 10:10 AM
*There-> They're
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2005/08/25, 12:08 PM
what do you think about them for bench press though?
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2005/08/25, 08:34 PM
Why do you need straps for bench press?
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2005/08/25, 08:40 PM
thats what i was wondering... I mean, I squeze the bar and all, but I don't think I would need straps. Unless you were using a false grip, which I would really recommend against.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/08/25, 10:48 PM
wrist wraps, not straps...
http://www.thegymshop.net/pages/wraps.html
you guys never use wrist support?
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2005/08/25, 11:29 PM
No. Although a great deal of my training is dedicated to grip and wrist strength, so I have never really needed it. Except when I use a snatch grip. Though thats another thread entirely.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/08/26, 01:11 AM
i see what your saying, but i try to lift pretty heavy(at least for me for the most part). me benching without wrist support would be like you training for a fight with no gloves, headgear, etc...
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2005/08/26, 01:24 AM
been there, done that, dont remember enough of it to give you my opinion.
seriously though, I do lots of wrist work, but have done lockouts with as much as 275 @ 135lbs bodyweight. Yeah, I felt it on the wrists, but I feel that if I do start to use gear like that, then I may be neglecting part of the chain. If my wrists are the weak link, and they can't handle the weight I am using, then I am setting myself up for injury.
Also, the glove that we use in MMA fighting are really thin. When all is said and done, they don't do as much as you think, just prevent bruising and cuts.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/08/26, 08:23 AM
dont get me wrong i value your opinion, i was just trying to make a point. also, i've watched enough mixed martial arts, both on tv and live to know that the gloves are there as sort of a bare minimal amount of protection.
I see what your saying though(about the chain). I'll definately do more work on my grip, wrists, etc...
I have finally benched 375lbs this past week. I didn't use the wraps up till around 225lbs, then it became more of a "just in case" thing more than anything else.
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2005/08/26, 06:59 PM
Your only strong as your weakest muscle.
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Friends don\'t let friends squat high...
People don\'t reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/08/27, 12:54 AM
My comment was not meant to say I don't want to give you my opinion, only that the only time I went bare, I got choked out and don't remember all of it, so I couldn't give you my opinion.
I completely understand your point. I take it into consideration, and I am always listening. I just wanted to take the time to explain my point of view.
And damnit andrew, how come you made it so simple to understand.
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Your two most important minerals: Iron and Chalk.
If you smoke or don’t wear your seatbelt, please don’t tell me the deadlift is dangerous.
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2005/08/29, 10:18 PM
vwshepherd I wrap mine wrists also. I use the Inzer iron z's I have allot riding on my wrists since I type at a keyboard all night at work.
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I am that
which must be feared, worshipped and adored. The world is mine
now and forever.No one holds command over me. No man. No god. I am ANIMAL! and that is enough.
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2005/08/29, 10:22 PM
Well I wear tape on my wrists......when I cheer. However a girl can be more of a challange than a barbell lol I mostly wrap them cause the girls catch our wrists......and "flick' off of them when I toss.....i'm sweaty.....they slid off. Tape alows some friction. Also some support. I wrap my wrists......only if i'm over 80% or doing heavy floore presses.
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Friends don\'t let friends squat high...
People don\'t reach thier true potental, only those who seek it.
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2005/08/30, 01:49 AM
im in the same boat as you mmaibohm, im a clerk at a hospital here. bigandrew, i also use wraps after getting to my heavier sets most of the time. any other time that i've got them on thru my lighter sets, they're not tight at all, and usually there more out of habit than anything. now when i get to my heaviest sets, the wraps go on about as tight as i can get them without cutting my hands off.
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2005/08/30, 05:05 AM
I used wrist supports before...and wrapped my wrists occassionally also...but since I stopped they got much stronger....and I had very weak wrists...although they are still not that strong as they are fairly narrow...but I was able to add considerable strength to them....
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