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2004/11/08, 02:25 PM
Which one is more effective ? Or is it just a matter of choice
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2004/11/09, 09:51 AM
Combined together is the best method of choice. But there is more to it than just adding bands to the bar.
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2004/11/10, 05:19 PM
stretch bands actually train your body in reverse and to be slow...not exactly my idea of a great product. can you say...."bow-flex?"
why is this bad? you train your body to be strong and weak at the wrong times. imagine picking up a child off of the ground. where is it the hardest?
if you said when you are closest to the ground, you are right! this is because of gravity and the concept of lever arms.
unfortunately, bands are at their maximum tension when you are standing up and at their weakest when you're down into a squat/bend. this means it's training your body to have strength when it doesn't need it and to be weak when it needs to be strong!
some people using bands for speed training are actually slowing themselves down in the process. this is because alot of what speed is based on is how long it takes your bodies antagonists to activate. the longer this takes, the faster your are. the band will do one of two things, it will teach your body to either fire your antagonists too early or not at all. either way, it's not good news for someone trying to develop speed and stay healthy.
in other words, use them as a last resort...hell do body weight exercises before using bands...ie: pushups, pullups,etc.
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All of the information I present is not my own...many before me have paved the road to teaching ultimate health and vitality. special thanks to paul chek and the chek institute.
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2004/11/11, 12:16 AM
na_miracle03, are you talking about bands with weights, or weights vs bands, such at the ones used in rehab??
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Michael
Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!
rev8ball@freetrainers.com
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2004/11/11, 11:14 AM
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Quoting from nellyboy:
stretch bands actually train your body in reverse and to be slow...not exactly my idea of a great product. can you say...."bow-flex?"
why is this bad? you train your body to be strong and weak at the wrong times. imagine picking up a child off of the ground. where is it the hardest?
if you said when you are closest to the ground, you are right! this is because of gravity and the concept of lever arms.
unfortunately, bands are at their maximum tension when you are standing up and at their weakest when you're down into a squat/bend. this means it's training your body to have strength when it doesn't need it and to be weak when it needs to be strong!
some people using bands for speed training are actually slowing themselves down in the process. this is because alot of what speed is based on is how long it takes your bodies antagonists to activate. the longer this takes, the faster your are. the band will do one of two things, it will teach your body to either fire your antagonists too early or not at all. either way, it's not good news for someone trying to develop speed and stay healthy.
in other words, use them as a last resort...hell do body weight exercises before using bands...ie: pushups, pullups,etc.
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I have seen the exact opposite of what you say here. I have experienced the exact opposite of what you say. When I put the bands on the bar for my dynamic day the next time I train with out them the bar is moving faster on the tendo unit then it did the week prior to the bands. I will also say that the bands teach you how to accelerate because if you don't accelerate properly they will pin you to your box or the bar to your chest. The bands supply accomodating resistance. They allow you to work with a weight you other wise would not be able to work with because there is less resistance at the bottom and more at the top. And they are not bow-flex. They feel nothing like that. The athletes I work with love the bands on the dynamic box squat day. Check the articles written by Louie Simmons on www.westside-barbell.com on bands and chains. I would also ask you how much experience you have training with the bands combined with your weights.
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2004/11/11, 11:35 AM
I would also like to add that the ends justify the means and with the success the athletes I work with have with them and the success I have had with them I would say adding bands to the bar as accommodating resistance is justified.
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2004/11/11, 11:44 AM
Gator I think both of them do not understand what you are talking about. I think they are talking about the exercsie band vs free weights not the way you are talking about.
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2004/11/11, 11:45 AM
I think you are right. The bands I am refering to are the Jumpstretch bands found at www.jumpstretch.com. You can also find them at www.elitefitnesssystems.com.
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2004/11/11, 11:46 AM
Yeah they are asking something completely different than what you and I are talking bout! LOL
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2004/11/11, 11:48 AM
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Quoting from nellyboy:
why is this bad? you train your body to be strong and weak at the wrong times. imagine picking up a child off of the ground. where is it the hardest?
if you said when you are closest to the ground, you are right! this is because of gravity and the concept of lever arms.
unfortunately, bands are at their maximum tension when you are standing up and at their weakest when you're down into a squat/bend. this means it's training your body to have strength when it doesn't need it and to be weak when it needs to be strong!
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How deep of a knee bend do most jumping athletes get before jumping? about a 1/4 to maybe a 1/2 squat. So why would it be bad to add bands to the bar when the Joint angle in which they jump from has the most resistance?
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2004/11/11, 12:56 PM
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
Gator I think both of them do not understand what you are talking about. I think they are talking about the exercsie band vs free weights not the way you are talking about.
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Exactly, Mutt. That's why I asked for clarification.
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Michael
Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!
rev8ball@freetrainers.com
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2004/11/11, 04:15 PM
my sources of information come from the leaders in strength and conditioning...not just in this country...but in the world. charles poliquin, kim goss, jerry telle and paul chek are just some of my influences. they train world record holders, elite level athletes that excell at high levels in their particular sport, champion moto cross, skateboarders, etc. personally, i've got 3 jobs right now and can only handle so many clients at one time, but i've had extensive experience in training athletes in the last 2 to 3 years and have learned much from it.
my take on this is a simple one, if the strength and conditoning coaches that train the elite level athletes recommend not using band for athletic training and they show significant evidence why you shouldn't......pretty simple to me.
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2004/11/11, 05:25 PM
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Quoting from nellyboy:
my sources of information come from the leaders in strength and conditioning...not just in this country...but in the world. charles poliquin, kim goss, jerry telle and paul chek are just some of my influences. they train world record holders, elite level athletes that excell at high levels in their particular sport, champion moto cross, skateboarders, etc. personally, i've got 3 jobs right now and can only handle so many clients at one time, but i've had extensive experience in training athletes in the last 2 to 3 years and have learned much from it.
my take on this is a simple one, if the strength and conditoning coaches that train the elite level athletes recommend not using band for athletic training and they show significant evidence why you shouldn't......pretty simple to me.
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Ever try figuring it out on your own? I don't care where your information comes from. I saw paul check fall on his face when he attempted an overhead squat at a strength and conditioning seminar. Have you ever tried the bands on your squat bar? Also, there is no research on bands and their effect on strength and power except one, which had poor methods, to prove anything in which you are trying to dispute. I train elite level athletes myself and have seen great results. When did a motocross champ ever need to have a great first step or a big squat? Same for the skate boarder. Don't try to compare your experience in training athletes with mine as a way to argue this point. I have numbers that back up what I am saying and if you would like to try this style of training then I invite you to come visit me here in Gainesville.
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2004/11/11, 05:27 PM
Nelly why don't you clarify what you mean about bands? I think you may be missing what Gator is trying to say....
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2004/11/11, 05:33 PM
You need to find new leaders...
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2004/11/11, 05:53 PM
This is from Paul Chek's website:The length / force relationships developed with free weights are exactly what the sports doctor ordered in every way. With free weight training, our joint mechanics and gravity create an environment that produces the greatest load on the muscle-tendon complex at a point approximating the strongest point of the length / force relationship of any given muscle-tendon-joint complex. For example, if you were to do a biceps curl with a dumbbell, the load is at its maximum when your forearm is parallel to the earth; that is about mid-range with relation to the sliding filaments in the muscle. In contrast, a biceps curl done against stretch cord resistance produces continually increasing load as the stretch cord lengthens. The obvious point of maximum loading then becomes the point at which the muscle is maximally shortened, which is not where we tend to use our muscles to perform functional activities; with that in mind, you may wonder just how valuable stretch cord training is over the long term.
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He is refering to a biceps curl and generalizing it to all exercises. Jumping occurs in the 1/4 to 1/2 squat range and yet we still squat to parallel. Why? Because squatting to parallel strengthens our joints through a wider range of motion so when we have to stride longer or get down to dig a ball we're stronger than we would be without training through the range of motion. When you load a barbell with straight weight and then add bands to it the tension increases with height with maximum tension occuring through the 1/2 squat to straight leg area. I have seen volleyball players increase their vert 5-12 inches of training for 5 weeks with bands implemented. The prior year I saw a 3-7 inch gain. The difference was the bands in the training plan. The bands teach you how to accelerate quickly. What athlete wouldn't want that?
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2004/11/11, 06:00 PM
I can sit here and debate this point forever with you. Until you try it for an extended period of time then you have no arguement that I will listen to. I have studied the same information from the same people you refer to and have tried it for myself. And from that have developed a unique system of my own. A system which has been part of 5 SEC championships in a 2 year time period. I have trained 5 olympians and numerous SEC and NCAA champs. My resume speaks for itself.
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2004/11/11, 06:04 PM
I hate to beat a dead horse but:
Paul Chek also states:
ADD SOME BALANCE AND PROPRIOCEPTION TRAINING TO YOUR PROGRAM
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The bands are an example of both of these areas when applied to the bar for squatting. Read the article on www.westside-barbell.com about bands and chains written by Louie. He is an expert in the field and there are at the very least 10 NFL teams, including the Patriots, who use him as a consultant. The end justifies the means.
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2004/11/11, 06:13 PM
One more and I am done with this topic:
Paul Chek (your hero):
In short, the best thing you can do is train predominantly with free weights, a Swiss Ball and some balance and proprioception training toys. You will not only improve performance and prevent injury but you will have fun!
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Bands fit this description. The proprioceptive benefits are evident the first time you perform 8 sets of 2 with bands on your box squats and then take the bands off for the last 2 sets. Same thing goes for speed bench. The bands are not right for every situation but I don't apply them to every situation. There is always a grey area in this field, why don't you come and visit us there sometime? There is plenty of room...:big_smile:
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2004/11/11, 06:31 PM
My bad. There is one good study on bands and here it is:
http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/effectsofaccom-resis.htm
The effects of accommodating resistance training on the development of motor learning patterns
Ben Newby, Martyn Girvan, James Cato, Victoria University
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The effects of accommodating resistance training on the development of motor leaning patterns
The development of motor control patterns to achieve functional transfer to increased sports performance is an objective of many strength and conditioning programs. Motor control refers to how the nervous system controls coordinated movements in terms of the relative importance given to movement commands specified by central components of the control system and the environment. Theory that gives command specified by the nervous system, that provide the basis for organizing, initiating and carrying out intended actions is known as a motor program (Magill, 2001).
Dynamic pattern theory is being investigated as an approach of motor control theory describing the control of movements that emphasize the role of the environment and the dynamic properties of the body and limbs (Magill , 2001).
Previous research has indicated that the cerebral cortex receives information from the proprioceptors that transform this information and send the appropriate pattern of signals to the motor cortex ( Siff, 1999). Proprioceptive feedback is associated with the performance of all physical tasks. The greater the proprioceptive sensitivity, the higher level of skill with all other aspects constant related to performance (Dickinson, 1974).
In this study, a changing environment has been created in the weight room by the deployment of large rubber bands to accommodate the resistance in a conventional exercise such as the barbell squat. The bands are used to change the strength curve by increasing the load as the participant ascends in the squat motion and decreasing the load on the descent ( Siff, 1999 ). The band also creates an unstable environment. Also the bands provided for a rapid decent which allowed for greater eccentric muscular contraction to activate a myotatic stretch reflex to increase reversal strength ( Granit, 1970 ).
The aim of the study was to establish a relationship between the development of motor patterns and transfer of learning to a performance based outcome. The hypothesis of the study is that the use of bands with weight training will develop motor learning patterns at an increased rate than the control group, that will transfer to other specified tasks. The itertask transfer developed is being measured is exploring a relationship between speed strength and absolute strength ( Schmidt, 1975). The motor patterns will create an increased rate of stabilizer muscle recruitment, a greater rate of force development and increased nervous system response to account for the changing load. The box squat was chosen to overload the muscles of the posterior chain being the hamstrings, spinal erectors and gluteals. These muscles are vital to the development of power( Poliquin, 1997 ).
METHOD
Participants
The participants (N=4) were four male powerlifters with a mean age of 30.5 years. All participants had at least one year of competitive experience and had attained “A Grade” competitive total or higher. All participants had competed at state and national championship level competitions.
Apparatus
A modified power rack with band attachments was used, as well as a standard Olympic Bar and numerous different sized weight plates. The rubber bands employed were four mm natural gum rubbers with widths of 45mm and 30mm. Reinforced wooden boxes from 5’ to 2’ were used as well as weight belts. Three stopwatches were used in conjunction with assisting video cameras and recording equipment also.
Procedure
Procedure involved participants performing a sequence of eight sets of two repetitions of box squats. Rest intervals between sets were timed to forty-five seconds. Box heights for each participant were set so that when the participant was sitting on the box, the top of their thigh would be one inch below parallel to the floor.
Participants received instructions as to perform the squat. The squats were performed by pushing the gluteal muscles towards the rear, so that once sitting on the box the shins are at a ninety degree angle to the floor to place minimal stress on the patella tendon and load the muscles of the posterior chain, being the spinal erectors, hamstrings and gluteal muscles.
Once the bar was unracked, participants were asked to push the abdominal muscles against the belt, to activate core stabilizer muscles and increase intra-abdominal pressure.
Participants all performed sets with sub maximal weights. Objectives for the participants were given as speed, acceleration and reversal off the box. Repetitions were performed under control allowing for a fast eccentric phase of the motion.
Group one performed weeks one and two with loads at sixty per cent of a competition rep maximum. Weeks three and four were performed at sixty-five per cent.
The load for group two was performed at fifty per cent of one repetition competition maximum. The additional tensions of rubber bands were used allowing for a calculated average of fifteen per cent at the top of the squat, deloading to seven per cent when on the box. Giving a contrast of sixty-five per cent at the top and fifty-seven per cent at the bottom for weeks one and two.
During weeks three and four, additional band tension was used with twenty-four per cent at the top and twelve per cent at the bottom. Bar weights were reduced to forty-six per cent of competition one repetition maximum. Giving percentages of seventy per cent at the top, deloading to fifty-eight per cent at the bottom.
Sets were timed manually with stopwatches used by three independent observers. Means were calculated for the three recorded times and recorded in the results.
The timing commenced at the initial movement of the participants hips as they began to move backwards and down, and ceased upon completion of the second repetition with the participant standing upright.
RESULTS
Tables 1-4 indicate results of speed and mean speed of sets performed over the four week trial. Tables 1 and 2 used accommodating resistance band and tables 3 and 4 were the control group.
Table1. Participant 1
Set 1 Set 2 Set 3 Set 4 Set 5 Set 6 Set 7 Set 8 Mean
Trial 1 3.87 4.28 3.58 3.39 3.58 3.91 3.73 3.48 3.73
Trial 2 3.84 3.85 4.06 3.68 3.96 3.84 4.10 3.81 3.89
Trial 3 4.07 3.88 3.74 4.10 3.77 3.68 3.60 3.73 3.82
Trial 4 4.40 4.02 4.24 3.76 3.82 3.78 3.98 4.17 4.02
Table 2. Participant 2
Set 1 Set 2 Set 3 Set 4 Set 5 Set 6 Set 7 Set 8 Mean
Trial 1 3.93 3.54 4.38 3.61 3.91 3.73 3.84 3.82 3.84
Trial 2 4.28 3.90 3.80 3.65 3.95 4.35 4.12 3.75 3.97
Trial 3 4.02 4.09 3.71 3.59 3.41 3.22 3.23 3.48 3.59
Trial 4 3.64 3.36 3.04 3.11 3.33 3.50 3.75 3.63 3.42
Table 3. Participant 3
Set 1 Set 2 Set 3 Set 4 Set 5 Set 6 Set 7 Set 8 Mean
Trial 1 3.38 3.53 3.51 3.86 3.33 3.51 3.61 3.58 3.54
Trial 2 3.91 3.87 3.38 3.53 3.40 3.84 3.88 4.16 3.74
Trial 3 3.67 3.77 3.29 3.63 3.49 3.35 3.40 3.62 3.52
Trial 4 4.38 4.04 3.62 3.46 3.46 3.28 3.49 3.59 3.66
Table 4. Participant 4
Set 1 Set 2 Set 3 Set 4 Set 5 Set 6 Set 7 Set 8 Mean
Trial 1 4.93 4.36 3.92 3.89 4.15 4.25 4.30 4.08 4.25
Trial 2 3.84 3.99 4.23 3.65 3.31 3.67 3.74 3.26 3.71
Trial 3 3.15 3.55 3.66 4.17 3.16 3.25 3.88 3.68 3.56
Trial 4 4.11 3.83 3.83 3.56 3.45 3.82 3.39 3.38 3.67
Tables 5 to 8 indicate pre and post test results for body fat percentage, body weight and maximal box squat.
Table 5. Participant 1
Pre test Post test
% Body fat 18.5% 18.3%
Body weight 121kg 121kg
Maximal box squat 265kg 305kg
Table 6. Participant 2
Pre test Post test
% Body fat 12.3% 12.6%
Body weight 104kg 103kg
Maximal box squat 290kg 325kg
Table 7. Participant 3
Pre test Post test
% Body fat 15.8% 15.9%
Body weight 92kg 91kg
Maximal box squat 210kg 212.5kg
Table 8. Participant 4
Pre test Post test
% Body fat 19.5% 19.2%
Body weight 99kg 99kg
Maximal box squat 215kg 225kg
Results indicate that mean speed for all groups was maintained for all participants. Groups 1 and 2 using accommodating resistance bands maintained bar speed with greater loads at the top of the movement. This would indicate a greater rate of force development. Groups using bands showed a greater transfer to a maximal box squat that was a test of absolute strength. No change in body weight and body fat percentage was shown by all participants during the trial.
DISCUSSION
The hypothesis of the use of rubber bands with weight training will develop motor learning patterns at an increased rate was supported. In all participants, body weight and body fat composition did not vary throughout the study.
Thus indicating that changes in measured performance outcomes were due to neurological changes. Qualitative research was conducted with all participants, with the groups using bands reported an increased awareness of stabilization relating this to intrinsic feedback. They reported that consciously activating the stabilizer muscles of the core allowed for greater transfer in the absolute strength test. Thus motor learning patterns were developed to allow for a functional transfer improvement.
All participants maintained mean bar speed throughout the trial even when loads were increased. The group using the bands had increased loads at the top of the movement where the body is more biomechanical efficient ( Siff, 1999 ). The bands deloaded to loads under the control group once on the box. The emphasis was to sit back on the box to overload muscles of the posterior chain i.e. gluteal muscles, spinal erectors, hamstrings and hips, all of the important muscles for increasing jumping power ( Poliquin, 1997).
The increased eccentric loading of the bands allowed for a faster decent phase of the squat, and allowed an intense rapid dynamic response to occur. The recruitment of the myotatic stretch reflex was activated because of the increased eccentric loading. The increase of load throughout the movement causing stretch, dynamic fibers are responsible for response required for load compensation as to realize full potentialities for combining direct excitation in the service of motor control (Granit, 1970).
An important component being observed was thee rate of force development in the muscles that are vital to sporting prowess ( Siff, 1999). This is given as a measurement of explosive strength. In the ascent phase of the movement, the varying load made the participant aware to accelerate the load, allowing for an increased time under tension but a lesser deceleration phase of the movement because of the accommodating resistance (Siff, 1999 ).
Both groups used compensatory acceleration techniques where reversal, speed and acceleration were the main objectives. Group using the bands reported an increased awareness of core muscles by pushing the abdominal wall against the weight belt. If the participants did not do this, they found that they were using incorrect form and struggled to complete the lift.
The following constitutes limitations of the study, that the sample group was relatively small and recruitment of more participants could have proven beneficial. Also a longer trial period may have been more beneficial. Selecting participants from a varied background of different sports and performing transfer tasks relative to each sport would provide a greater insight to the efficiency to this method of training.
Future research should investigate this relationship between the development of motor learning patterns and the transfer to increased sporting performance. As for many sports the ability to change direction, increase rate of force development, speed and acceleration are important components to assist performance. The development of these motor patterns contributes to core stability that can be a major factor in injury prevention. Training the body to respond to greater loads as well as allowing the nervous system to adapt has been a component that is sometimes overlooked in strength and conditioning programs for athletes.
REFERENCES
Dickinson, J. (1974). Proprioceptive Control of Human Movement . Mereyside: Bootle.
Granit, R. (1970). The Basis for Motor Control. London: Academic Press.
Magill, R.A. (2001). Motor Learning: Concepts and Applications. ( 6th ed.). New York:
McGraw-Hill.
Poliquin, C. (1997). Successful Methods for Strength and Mass Development. Napa:
Dayton.
Schmidt, R. (1975). Motor Skills. New York: Harper and Row.
Siff, M.C. (1999). Supertraining. ( 4th ed.) Denver: Supertraing International.
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2004/11/11, 07:00 PM
i take my hat off to you man...although you could've been a tad more tactful. this is by far the best reply to a controversial post that i've ever read. by the way, i never said they should never be used, i just wanted a debate....just makes us all smarter. i get to see a different view-point and this just helps me as well as everyone on here have a better understanding of the science of exercise.
:big_smile:as for paul chek being my "hero" , mentor is a better word and everyone has to have one, yours seems to be louie, which is great. he's a pioneer as well as the others mentioned here.
thanks
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2004/11/11, 07:06 PM
your first reply could have been more tactfuly also. When you said:
"my sources of information come from the leaders in strength and conditioning...not just in this country...but in the world. charles poliquin, kim goss, jerry telle and paul chek are just some of my influences. they train world record holders, elite level athletes that excell at high levels in their particular sport, champion moto cross, skateboarders, etc. personally, i've got 3 jobs right now and can only handle so many clients at one time, but i've had extensive experience in training athletes in the last 2 to 3 years and have learned much from it." it fired me up because you lost your ability to debate and tried the becuase these people said it is so then it must be response. If you would have been more tactful in that response then my replies would have been also. Thanks for making me sharper though! I enjoy this! :)
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2004/11/11, 07:19 PM
lol, me too! yeah, as i was writing it, i had that bitter taste in my mouth....but sometimes it takes a my @ick is bigger than yours approach to get a really good debate...lol:big_smile:
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2004/11/12, 06:05 PM
amazing post....great info gator...very helpful...thanks
Just for clarification gator...what is a good speed(time wise) for the 2 rep sets performed by the lifters(in other words what's considered good speed before one should increase the weight performed)? Also what are good speed(time wise)/rep range for deadlift/bench?
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2004/11/13, 04:00 AM
^ :)
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2004/11/13, 03:07 PM
hmmm...let's debate this thought: if you were to train a boxer, elite or amature...doesn't really matter, would you still incorporate band resistance in any of the periodization cycles? what i'm referring to here is using them for increasing the speed of a punch. this is what happens alot of time when i see "trainers" conditioning their boxers and i don't agree with it at all, because of the principles that i discussed earlier (antagonists firing too early or too late).
i see alot of hyperextension injuries at the elbow and tendinitis at the shoulder and i have a pretty good idea of what's causing it.
you'll get a kick out of this...i was watching one of these "trainers" the other day with one of his boxers and the only core conditioning that they did were all crunches...wow i'm sure that 70 bucks a session he paid was well spent!
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2004/11/14, 12:26 PM
I use the bands for general strength exercises. I don't incorporate them into sport specific movements because I am not sure how that would affect their natural mechanics. I do know that the bands work very well when combined with the general strength exercises however. As far as hyperextension injury at the elbow and tendonitis at the shoulder I am pretty sure that is a common injury to all boxers. The nature of their sport is overuse of their dominant arm. Plus, it is really easy to hyperextend your elbow when you throw a punch.
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2004/11/14, 09:40 PM
I wish there was someone like you in Tennesee, Gator. You would have me stickin my elbow in the rim. There is a training facility called Petrone training but its like 70 bucks per workout or something. He guaranteed like 3 inches on my vertical in a month and a helf, but I just don't have that kind of money. Do you know anyone around here (East Tennessee) that won't take my arm and leg off to help train me for Basketball next summer?
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2004/11/15, 02:35 AM
Just for clarification gator...what is a good speed(time wise) for the 2 rep sets performed by the lifters(in other words what's considered good speed before one should increase the weight performed)? Also what are good speed(time wise)/rep range for deadlift/bench?
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2004/11/15, 05:11 PM
that is a good point gator, an interesting fact to point out is that charles poliquin went up to canada some time back to train a group of synchronized swimmers 23 or so of which had severe tendinitis in their shoulders. as soon as he got there the only variable he changed was to get them off the bands and...poof, just like that all but 2 went away completely. although not much was said about how they were training with the bands, it still makes you wonder.
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2004/11/15, 07:11 PM
Menace3000: A rep should take under 1 second.
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2004/11/15, 08:04 PM
Actually depending on the way you are lifting your rep speed can vary. My speed is usually a 2 count, any faster and the weight bounches...which is how some get higher bench lifts than I.
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2004/11/15, 10:05 PM
Above post was mine. Speaking of bi-articular, one of my biomechanics profs was bi and large, but that is a whole different issue! :big_smile: (I stole that line from Emo Phillips)
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2004/11/16, 01:24 PM
no need to elaborate, great points to make. and the whole point of my previous posts were to get some good debate going. there are some out there that believe that band resistance is never applicable and some that swear their life on it...usually someone who manufactures and sells the stuff. just like anything in this business, everything (for the most part) has it's purpose and advantages at some point. i was simply referring to the one aspect in my first post (using it for boxers to train for increased punch speed and power) and seeing if anyone wanted to get into it.
when i talked about the bend/squat pattern being taught backwards, i was referring to products like bow-flex and other band-only products that claim to provide resistance throughout the movement. i just figured generalizing would ellicit a good response. ursusarktos...what do you think of this concept, it's one i'm pretty firm on. my point is when a muscle is at it's shortest and the load is at it's maximum, the chances of cramp or injury are far greater.
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2004/11/17, 01:29 AM
Had a feeling that I was going to get logged out!
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2004/11/18, 06:21 AM
wonder where gator disappeared to ...still want to hear from him reply to my original question since he's very knowledgable in this area... I am thinking squat takes longer to do than bench...so 2 seconds? 3?..guys in the study did avg of about 3.6-3.7 seconds...so squat speed is considerably different from bench or deadlift i am guessing...
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2004/11/18, 01:48 PM
You are right. The way I do speed squat is way different then a regular squat. I do dynamic effort box squats. It is a controlled descent to the box, a 1 second pause, and then driving off the box as hard and as fast as possible. It should be between 50-60% of your 1 RM. If it is done right you should be done under 5 seconds.
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2004/11/18, 08:17 PM
cool..that clarifies it a bit...but generally speaking were the people in the study trying to improve the speed at which they squatted the weight or were they trying to progressively increase the weight at a particular tempo?
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2004/11/18, 09:50 PM
I've done the research, and I've even met the guy, and Charles Poliquin says nothing about bands slowing people down. Not to mention, ever double standard experiment I've reviewed has people training with bands and weights making gains up to 37% more.
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Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even.
steve
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2004/11/20, 05:33 AM
^
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2004/11/22, 01:58 PM
The Science Behind Bands and Chains
By Rob Haan
EliteFTS.com
A lot has been written as to how to set up the bands and chains and how to include them in your training but not much has been written about how they work and how they change the barbell or their effect on the muscles. To my knowledge their have only been three studies that have looked at the use of bands and only one that looked at chains that have been published to this point. I know that several are being worked on now. This is kind of surprising to me because Eugene Sandow was selling a home exercise device in the early 1900’s that used rubber tubing for resistance. In the 1970’s elastic bands were promoted and sold by one company as a cheap method of accomplishing the same things as isokinetic machines.
Yuri Verkhoshansky included a little bit about elastic bands in his 1977 book {Fundamentals of Special Strength-Training in Sport}, which at times can be difficult to read but is a incredible resource. Dick Hartzell invented Jump Stretch bands in the 1970’s and recommended them for stretching, rehab and to be used as the resistance in strength training. Louie Simmons started using them and writing about them in addition to the barbell in the early 1990’s. This has lead to their increase in popularity due to his articles, videos and the success of the lifters at Westside barbell. Chains have also been around since the early 1900’s, they were draped over the bar during deadlifts. Arthur
Jones welded a hook on to the bar and hung chains from it in his first step of perfecting the barbell in 1939 and he later added them to his Nautilus machines (Szmanski 2003). Their are at least 4 different brands of bands that are being sold and 3 different companies selling chains specifically for lifting and another that sells a collar that chains can be attached to.
I do not know why there have been so few studies on the use of chains and bands. It could be that exercise scientists see no reason to do studies because the results speak for themselves. The more likely answer is that the serious strength training is light years ahead of exercise science. Most sports are all about speed and power. Numerous studies have been done in an attempt to figure out what the best training method is. Some coaches say high speed is best. Others believe low speed and some say heavy weights. There are plenty of studies that support each coaches idea. Behm and Sale (1993) found that maximal isometric work was equal to high-speed isokinetics for gains in speed strength. Their conclusion was that it is the intention to move fast and not the actual movement speed that leads to gains in speed strength. Other studies have been done that have compared isometrics to isokinetics. It was found that the isokinetics to be superior but they did not have their subjects push as hard as possible from the start of the isometric contraction. This kind of reinforces Behm and Sales conclusion that it is all about the effort and attempting to move the weight as fast as possible. This is what bands are all about. They force the lifter to push as hard as they can throughout the range of motion, pushing as hard as you can creates maximum tension in the muscle. The bands prevent you from coasting to the finish. If you have read any of the old Soviet weight training manuals you know maximum muscle tension is required to get stronger.
There is also a big disparity in studies that attempt to figure out at which percent of a maximum lift that maximum power output occurs at. If you were to just quickly read through the abstracts of various studies you would find some say as low as 30% and others will say high as 80%. The reason for the difference is that different exercises and different subjects were used and the measurements were taken at different spots in the range of motion. Maximum power output in the snatch increased up to 66% and than dropped off. In the jump squat it is 30%, bench press in the 40-60% range, and squat 80%. Power output of various weight classes is different. 82.5 kg lifters had the highest power output, followed by the 60 kg lifters and than the heavy weights. Baker (2001) found the athletes with the highest level of absolute strength had the highest power output in the bench press in the 46-49% range of their maximum, the not so strong lifters had the highest power output in 64-69% range. This backs up the stronger bench pressers training with a lower percent than the weaker lifters.
Siegal et al. (2002) used the squat on a smith machine with from 30- 90% of maximum and looked at power output at three spots along the movement. The highest power outputs were with 60% at the first marker and with 80% at the third marker. Power output with 30% was double what it was with 90% at the first marker but it was higher at the 2nd and 3rd spots with 90% than 30%. Think about this for a bit, if your objective is to improve speed strength and the highest power output occur with light weights at the start of the lift and heavy weights at the top, and it is best to
train as close as possible to the performance. Bands will allow you to do this, you could start with less than 50% in the bottom of the lift and finish with 100% at the top of the lift and be working at close to maximal power output through the entire range of motion. The power output wound not be quit as high as with the bands because the velocity is slower.
The strength curve is a graph of force production at various points along the range of motion. It changes because of changes in the joint angle, muscle length, and the involvement of other muscles. Elliot et al 1989 studied the strength curve of the bench press. When using maximal weights they found the bar is accelerated of the chest till it reached the sticking point at about 40% completion of the lift. After the sticking point the bar then accelerates again reaching peak force at 60% of the lift and slows down until lockout. With 80% of maximum the bar speeds up for 48.3% of the movement and slows down for 51.7% of the movement. Thus, the lighter the weight the longer the deceleration period. Everyone knows that they can lift much more weight at the top than off the chest. But the upper part of the range of motion is the bar slowing down. This means less force is being applied to the bar. In the bench press you have to do this because your arm is only so long and the bar must return to zero velocity.
Claxton 2001 compared the bench press, bench press throws and the bench press with bands kinematically. The subjects used 30% of there maximum plus mini bands. He found peak power output was highest in the bench press throw, than the bench press and lowest in bench press with bands. The bench press throw peaked before 50% of the
lift was completed, the bench press reached peak power output at 60% and than fell off. The bench press with bands reached its peak at 80% and than had very little fall off until lockout. This shows that if your objective was to demonstrate power you would use the bench press throw. But in training you are trying to increase power and with the bands the muscle is working harder for a longer period of time and the longer the muscle works maximumally the greater the strength gains. Lander et al 1985 found force output was greater at slower speeds on the isokinetic bench press. Rosentsweig et al 1975 found muscle activation and strength gains were greater when the concentric portion of the bench press on an isokinteic machine was performed at 3.5 seconds as compared to 2.0 and 1.5 seconds. This could be called time under maximal tension. Ballistic movements have very little time under tension meaning although the load on the muscle is high it only occurs for a very short period of time like the bench press throws and bench press with light weight from the Claxton Study. I am not talking about Arthur Jones recommendation of doing reps to failure or the Super Slow Guilds concept of performing each repetition at a cadence to ensure the muscle is being worked for 50-70 seconds in order to become stronger. This go back to Behm and Sales (1993) conclusion that it is the effort and the intent to move fast and not the actual movement speed that determines strength gains.
The maximal effort for the increased time period can lead to increased muscle fatigue. Rosentsweig et al 1975 reported the subjects that worked at the slower speed complained of being tired and sore more often towards the end of the study than the other subjects. This is why it is important to decrease training volume and make changes
in your training at least every 3-4 weeks when you use bands.
Berry et al 2001 showed the effect bands have on the deceleration at the top. They compared 2 groups that did 4 weeks of lifting with bands and 4 weeks of compensatory acceleration. The group that did bands second had significantly greater increases in their squat, bench press and vertical jump over the bands first group. The important
test here was the seated medicine ball throw. The bands second group improved by 17.4 inches, 15.4 of these inches from the bands. The bands first group had a net loss of 2 inches after a gain of 8 inches following the bands. Why? The seated medicine ball throw is an explosive movement and to throw it for distance the ball must be accelerated through the entire movement. In compensatory acceleration the movement starts off explosively but must slow down and than stop when the end of the arm is reached. When the bands are used the bar is slowed by the increasing
load and the lifter can accelerate thought the entire movement and it only comes to a stop because of running out of arm. The medicine ball is the same as sports movements. How effective would a boxer be if they purposely slowed the punch or if the football player decelerated prior to making contact. The effect is not as big on the squat or vertical jump because the acceleration can continue. The lifter can come up on his toes or the bar can come off the back. But the lifter can not come off the bench and letting the bar fly upward at the end of the bench press would only be an injury waiting to happen.
Eccentric movements have shown to involve a lower number of muscle fibers than the concentric movement with the same weight. Brandenberg and Docherty (2002) found strength gains were greater when 110-120% of concentric maximum was lowered and 75% lifted as compared to just lifting 75% of concentric maximum which was in agreement with previous research. Doan et al. (2002) found that the average bench press of the their subjects
increased from 97.44 to 100.57 kg with the addition of 5% on the weight releaser. Their conclusion was that the increased eccentric load increased the muscle activation and the stretch of the connective tissue and was what was responsible for the increased bench presses. Louie Simmons has stated in articles and on the Reactive Method
video that bands pull you down faster than gravity, which means an increased eccentric load and leads to gains in strength. Anybody that has ever squatted with heavy band tension can tell you that as soon as you start the decent it feels as if you are being pulled to the floor. Eccentric work has been associated with muscle soreness so this is another reason why decreasing training volume when bands are used is important.
Chains simply serve as a form of accommodating resistance to the strength curve. As the bar is elevated more links of chain come off the floor increasing the load and forcing the lifter the push harder to keep the bar moving. The only study that looked at the effects of chains is Ebben and Jensen (2002) who also looked at bands. They had their subjects perform a 5 RM set and the measured the power output and electrical activity in the muscle on the third repetition. They replaced 10% of the bar weight with bands or chains without saying how much band tension or chain was added. They found their were no significant differences in EMG or ground reaction forces between
the three lifts but the chains did have a slightly greater EMG readings and lower ground reaction forces than the bands or the regular lift. Their subjects did say the bands and chains made the squat feel different. Their conclusion was that bands and chains offer no benefit and they are hard to set up. What is hard about anchoring the bands with a heavy dumbbell and slipping the other end of the band over the end of the bar? The chains only require a loop of light chain around the bar and another loop on the floor with the heavy chain lying through it. This does not seem hard to figure out for me. Bands and chains are not used for repetition maximum work in major lifts, they are used for speed or maximum effort work which is done for sets of 1-3 repetitions. If they had really been interested in making comparisons they would have set them up like those that use them.
To sum it up bands increase the time of maximal or near maximal force and increase the eccentric load which lead to increased strength. They also decrease deceleration so the movements are more like the movements in sports and allow you to work at close to maximum power output throughout the entire range of motion.
Is the use of bands and chains some magical tool that will create supermen? No, the process of getting stronger is slow and takes years of hard work, bands make the work harder not easier. The bands and chains are just a way of stimulating the muscle in a different way and changing the strength curve and the force velocity curve.
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2004/12/01, 04:39 PM
I have to give nelly boy some credit here. Look at the quality in posts. Scientific studies with the purpose of debating a point on both sides of an arguement. Some of the best posts are the most controversial
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Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even.
steve
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2004/12/01, 08:38 PM
Except nelly boy hasn't posted a single research study to back up his point...
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2004/12/05, 05:31 PM
gatormade you do make a great point about me not posting research. this is simply because i try to combine the research out there with clinical observation, functional anatomy, common sense and personal experiences and condense them into a post that is as original as is possible and entertaining as well. i'm part researcher, part trainer, part lecturer with a little stand-up "wanna-be" thrown in. :)
i try to make an effort with every post to add that if anyone wants additional info, all they have to do is ask and if i don't it's cuz i simply forgot. this refers to studies, terminology, reasoning...etc.
by the way...sorry it's been awhile since i've posted, my boss gets on my case now about spending too much time on the internet..oh well.
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2004/12/06, 06:59 AM
I have plenty of personal experience too but if I don't back it up with solid research and an athlete gets hurt doing something then I would get fired.
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2008/11/02, 09:45 AM
isotonic training (bully extreme) and weight resistance training can you use them together?
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