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2004/08/19, 05:36 PM
just because someone is bigger than you they are not necesarilly stronger, i know this is probably obvious, but how come the man with biggest muscles isnt always stronger?
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dooby doo doo
A.D.F.
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2004/08/19, 07:04 PM
A lot of body builders are naturally big, and they do whatever it takes to get big. However, powerlifters and olympic lifters especially tend to train a lot of muscles that don't really get that defined or get the ripped look. Powerlifters are all about the numbers and strength rather than looks.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2004/08/19, 07:05 PM
Usually do to the muscle fibers themselves. Fast twitchis for short bursts of power, and slow twitch is for long durations.
Most body builders aren't really strong compared to their body mass and % Ronnie coleman coming to top of my head, is a very strong body builder. Deadlists some thing like 800lbs for a 2 rep. However off season he is 350 and like 13% body fat at the most.
Some powerlifters can come weighing in at a good 300 but be deadlifting 950 or so, and have like 15-17% body fat.
Ronnie coleman trains for size, and the most muscle, to body build. To body build you daon't have to be strong, just bigger and more cut and asymertical.He has more slow twitch
while a powever lifter, can be looking "fat" but be very strong.He has fast twitch manly.
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if you kick a tiger in the @$$ , you then have to descide what to do with the teath end.
any guy can hold a girl by the hand, but only the select few can hold her by her feet!
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2004/08/20, 12:33 PM
It depends alot on genetics and on how you train.
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2004/08/21, 11:14 AM
thanks guys, that explains quite a few things.
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dooby doo doo
A.D.F.
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2004/08/22, 12:10 AM
Bodybuilding and powerlifting are two different kinds of weight lifting, and produce two different results. I've always been small but in the weight room at school I lift with the "big" guys, guys that outweigh me by 40+ pounds.
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Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even.
steve
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2004/08/22, 12:28 AM
Powerlifting involves using fast-twitch fiber (white) which is nonaerobic. Bodybuilders on the other hand are more endured as they concentrate more on the slow-twitch fiber (red - aerobic) doing a higher volume of sets and reps. Red fiber is 20 percent smaller than white fiber. The reason bodybuilders are so "large" is the fact that they recruit more muscle fibers to failure in a given set than powerlifters/weightlifters.
Time for bed! :big_smile:
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Seeking out motivation does not motivate you to seek out results.
- Paul
Post mark - AugustWW - Post mark
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2004/08/22, 10:12 AM
Above post was mine.
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2004/10/02, 04:27 PM
I like performing any where from 2-5 sets of 2, 3, or 5 when I train for strength and power. I don't have the time to detail a plan here. Send me an email.
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2004/10/01, 10:03 AM
So, to train for the best strength-mass ratio, (ie. less mass more strength), what sortof sets/reps and weight needs to be used? or what excercise in general is required?
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2004/10/01, 11:37 AM
5 and under
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2004/10/02, 01:56 PM
??? 5 reps and under ???
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stay dumb, you know it makes no sense.
This site is best viewed on a monitor connected to a computer.
A.D.F.
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2007/05/15, 01:17 AM
I want to get strong and look good, but i don't want any muscle getting in my way of being athletic. i want to be very strong for my body size because i want to do things like Parkour and Free running. so i was wondering how do i train to get strong compared to my body size? I look at videos on youtube and i see these break dancers doing one handed handstand presses and they don't look huge, but they are really strong for their size, you wouldn't see a power lifter or a body builder doing things like that. so how do i get strong so that i have complete control of my body, without being so big that it holds me back like a body builder or a power lifter.
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2007/05/15, 01:21 AM
I also was wondering about calorie intake. I know if someone wants to gain mass they must have a caloric surplus and if they want to lose weight they must have a caloric deficit. but what kind of caloric intake is needed to maximize strength while minimizing mass? or the better question would be, what caloric intake is best to maximize my strength relative to my body size?
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2007/05/15, 11:38 AM
You won't see a powerlifter or bodybuilder doing things like that because it serves no purpose. I'm not judged in competition on my sense of balance, I'm judged on if I get the weight up. Why train it if it means nothing to me?
I've only been to one breakdance competition, but it didn't look like these guy's muscles were "holding them back".
You can start by reading this thread and others in this forum. You should also know that you will need a caloric surplus just to recover from your workouts. However, it won't be a huge surplus like for a bodybuilder.
My advice is stop overthinking it first. The guys that are overly concerned about gaining "too much" muscle are, in my experiance, invariably small AND weak.
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Mortal by birth.
Strongman by the grace of god.
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/05/15, 01:40 PM
I wish I could gain too much muscle.
Gaining muscle is hard. You have to train hard and eat, eat, and eat most of the time to increase your mass. If it was easy to get huge, why wouldn't eveyone you see be walking around and look like Arnold did?
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2007/05/15, 03:55 PM
the previous post is from me....
Ok wrestler125, I don't know what you meant by that, but you seemed to be insulting me. First of all, i wasn't referring to you when i was talking about the one handed handstands, it may serve no purpose for you because thats not what you want to train for, but that kind of training would be relevant for what I want to train for which is Parkour/Free Running (If you don't know what that is you can youtube it. One of the parkour videos that I am in is <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgfa4wFPegU>). To make a better example, I'll say that I don't see power lifters or body builders holding their bodies straight out on a pole or holding an Iron cross like gymnast do on the Rings. Now I still don't know if you get the point I am trying to make, and if not please let me know, but I would appreciate it if you would show a little respect this time, I didn't mean to insult you. And secondly, I am not small and weak, I too was a wrestler, team captain, regional champion, and state placer, I train in Gymnastics and used to coach boys gymnastics, I also won the University of Northern Colorado Strong man Competition for the under 200 lbs weight class. I weigh about 170 lbs, i bench 265, and squat 425, I don't know if thats as strong as you, but I wouldn't classify myself as "invariably small AND weak." Also, I didn't mean to say the break dancers muscles are holding them back, i meant to say, if a break dancer was built like a bodybuilder or a power lifter, then he wouldn't be able to do what he does. So I want to know, what would be the best type of workout and diet to train for Parkour/Free running. Or in other words, what would be the best workout/diet to maximize strength in comparison to body size.
another sweet parkour video is on this link (this is a skill level that I hope to achieve and am on my way to achieving)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEeqHj3Nj2c&mode=related&search=
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2007/05/15, 06:18 PM
I'm not insulted, you asked a question. I personally can do handstand push ups and planches just fine (I'm a lightweight powerlifter and strongman competitor).
If I insulted you, then you are probably not thinking when you write.:
" you wouldn't see a power lifter or a body builder doing things like that."
"I'll say that I don't see power lifters or body builders holding their bodies straight out on a pole or holding an Iron cross like gymnast do on the Rings."
I'll once again say, you don't see powerlifters or bodybuilders doing that because it doesn't f- matter if they can do that. Why train for something that means nothing to them. I wouldn't train a distance runner to bench like a powerlifter, so why train a powerlifter to do an iron cross??? Most lightweight powerlifters could achieve this level of strength with SPECIFIC training, but they don't do that type of training because it makes no sense to.
Powerlifters train to build RELATIVE strength, the same thing you are training for. We all compete in weight classes, and just because the only exposure you have to powerlifters is the heavyweights you see lifting on youtube (most popular on video because they lift more than lightweights), doesn't mean all powerlifters are huge and fat. There is no "built like a powerlifter". Just because you train one particular way doesn't mean you are going to get huge overnight.
If you change your line of thinking, you will realize the answer is right in front of you.
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Mortal by birth.
Strongman by the grace of god.
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/05/15, 07:00 PM
Ok, so are you saying if i train like a powerlifter, then It will help me with my parkour?
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2007/05/15, 07:45 PM
But I fail to see why your arguing? There are no 250+lb gymnasts...simple for the fact heavier you are...that way more work than needs to be done. In gymnastics you want to be as strong and explosive as possible at the lightest weight possible. Every athlete( just about) goal is to be as light as posible, and strong/fast as possible depending on sport.
"I want to get strong and look good, but i don't want any muscle getting in my way of being athletic."
1st off this forum doesn't care about looking good...its abotu functionality and using it to perfrom at whatever activity.
2nd muscle only gets in the way if it's "non-functional" muscle. Bodybuilders...work for hypertrophy (duh) but its sacromere(sp) hypertrophy. meaning the only thing thats getting bigger is the fluid and other parts of the muscle cell. Powerlifters, o- lifters, athletes in general want Mydrofiberal(sp) hypoertrophy...where the actual things that cause the muscle to contract grow. Making the muscle able to produce more force. Usually with smaller weight changes as in bodybuilding. So there's muscle that look good.
"I look at videos on youtube and i see these break dancers doing one handed handstand presses and they don't look huge, but they are really strong for their size, you wouldn't see a power lifter or a body builder doing things like that."
Again...break dancer don't want to be big...just like gymnasts....more weight..more weight to lift/control.
"so how do i get strong so that i have complete control of my body....
If you have done gymnastics like you claim( which to me you look like you barly hit the gym period)YOU learn tohave control of you body through practice and practice. You thinka gymnast learned a double layout...or a iron cross in one day? You have to build the fundementals 1st....starting when lil...they learn flexability....and balance....then to do a pull up on the ring. Learn cart wheels.....few years later....the put them together...lereningt o support their body weight on the rings no spot....making a round off hand spring tuck connect into a pass.
All this takes years and years.
Control come through expierance....no mater the sport or activity.
Watch break dancers....look at their legs on body....if thier body goes one way...their legs or torso..go the other to balance....this has to be learnt...again expierance.
"...without being so big that it holds me back like a body builder or a power lifter"
This sentence pises me off... you comparing a bodybuilder and powerlifter......yes both are due the same amount of respect....but the 2 are not one in the same...they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
You are comparing apples and oranges here man.
Btw not to start an arguement....but from your pics...I don't think you could touch those maxes.IMO
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\"The eight laws of learning are explanation, demonstration, imitation, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, and repetition\"
You have to learn to follow, before you can lead.
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2007/05/15, 07:53 PM
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Quoting from Zackariah1:
Ok, so are you saying if i train like a powerlifter, then It will help me with my parkour?
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An important characteristic of parkour is efficiency. The basic meaning of this is that a traceur must not merely move as fast as he can, but move in a way that is the least energy-consuming and simultaneously the most direct. In addition, since parkour's unofficial motto is être et durer (to be and to last), efficiency also involves avoiding injuries, short and long-term.
If what I'm reading is correct...then the best way to get better at this....is to do just that. Gymnasts get better...by what?
Practicing their passes or routines, or areas that have difficulity with.
How a powerlifter get better at benching?
Basicly put..bench more...or do things that build the bench. Same with any other lift.
Not my area to guess....but a basic strength routine for the whole body..would be benificial....with some supplemental plyometrics training would prolly help the most with this area(s).
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\"The eight laws of learning are explanation, demonstration, imitation, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, and repetition\"
You have to learn to follow, before you can lead.
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2007/05/16, 12:27 AM
Not sure what all this argument is all about. Wrestler gave you straightforward answer. Powerlifters train for relative strength which is exactly what you're looking for. As do olympic lifters, strongmen, highland competitors, gymnasts,and just about any other sport where relative strength is at great advantage. For this you need to lift heavy. At first you may be able to make huge improvements just by keeping calories steady. As long as they are from good sources.
Additionally there is a thing called specificity. While many sports rely on strength the athletes of those sports still train differently. The skills training of each sport is different. As are certain lifting drills those athletes perform. that is the 'specificity' aspect we're all talking about. While squatting and deadlift is great for ANY athlete....if you're a gymnast you may also want to do extra work with bodyweight exercises or doing weighted chins and dips. On top of that each athlete will also practice individual technique whether it's shooting endless jumpshoots or doing one arm handstands or doing flips.
You should be focusing on things like heavy squats, deadlifts, weighted chins/dips, standing Overhead press, BOR, GMs, etc....you may also want to incorporate things like Olympic lifts(cleans, snatches, jerks,etc), muscle ups, plyometrics, and so on once you get stronger. Since your focus is parkour you want to heavily focus on balance and flexibility as well.
As wrestler said dont fall for common misconceptions. 'Relatively' overweight athletes are usually at the heaviest of weight classes. Sure top olympic lifters/powerlifters are often overweight at the heaviest of weight classes...usually over 300lb but even so they have bf that's about what an avg male carries at 15-20% but those guys are lifting half a ton of weight quite often or jumping in the air with 500+lb weight on their body. Additionally many of the top athletes in those very sports at lighter divisions have not only great athleticism/strength but also bodies that most bodybuilders would be jealous of.
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2007/05/16, 03:57 AM
That previous post was from me...
Thank you menace3000 thats what I wanted to know, I also appreciate your politeness. thanks for giving me the answers I was looking for without criticizing/insulting me. I'm new to this whole free trainers thing, but I really do appreciate your kindness. thanks man.
But as for bigandrew... why do you have to be such a jerk man. i wasn't comparing bodybuilders to power lifters... I was comparing both of them to gymnast and break dancers because powerlifters and bodybuilders work with weights and gymnast and break dancers work with their own bodies. you said...
"Again...break dancer don't want to be big...just like gymnasts....more weight..more weight to lift/control."
this was my point and my goal. I want to be strong, but I don't want to be so big that I have "more weight to lift/control." so i wanted to know what exercises would be the most proficient to helping me achieve that.
"If you have done gymnastics like you claim( which to me you look like you barly hit the gym period)YOU learn tohave control of you body through practice and practice."
"this sentence pisses me off..." Come on dude, seriously how unnecessary was that insertation? honestly, that was very uncalled for, I hope you feel bigger because of that. but hey man, I'll put some pictures on my profile that show my muscles more and If that still doesn't prove it to you I'll take pics of me squatting/Benching what i normally do which is squat: 315 (5 sets of 5-7reps) and bench: 205 (5 sets of 5-7 reps) because that really insulted me. and hopefully (once you see that I wasn't lying) you'll be a big enough man to apologize.
Thanks again menace3000
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2007/05/16, 07:42 AM
OK boys lets stop the name calling and all that......anymore of it and i will delete those posts....Zack if you post as null just let us know it was you..no need to post it again ok? Thanks
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Curl Jockeys, get outta the squat rack!
I wish everyone would get a partial amnesia and never use 'tone' ever again. (thanks Menance)
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2007/05/16, 10:20 AM
Zack no problem and glad to help. Dont get wrong impressions of wrestler and andrew they are both good guys with a lot of training experience. I think you are all talking about the same thing.
I think every SHW powerlifter would dream of being 200 lb while lifting same numbers. However it's just not possible so some sacrifices are made. Many of the SHW olympic lifters can dunk a basketball while being 6' or less and weighing over 300lb....
I highly suggest you start on a basic 5x5 routine or push/pull/squat....then after a while start adding plyometrics or olympic lifts as well for variety and specificity...
I personally love muscle ups....and at 220 they are pretty challenging. Plus when I do them with extra weight I get these funny looks.
Parkour is an awesome sport. I love watching those vids on youtube. Those guys are truly unique.
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2007/05/16, 12:48 PM
Oh wow, that's amazing. I had no Idea that powerlifters were that athletic especially because some of them are so big. and thanks for the workout advice, I'll start that up asap.
thanks again
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2007/05/16, 06:04 PM
wrestler never called you weak.... you bragged the numbers.....and talk the talk...you have 9 posts...adn already throwing numbers.
If you post a vid of you benching 265 for one clean rep...I mean butt on bench, no spotter, and touching your chest( not bounce)....and squat 425....full ROM, again not spotter.....then yes i'll eat my words.
And I don't mean rep max using a caculator...I mean the ACTUAL weight you claim to lift.
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\"The eight laws of learning are explanation, demonstration, imitation, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, and repetition\"
You have to learn to follow, before you can lead.
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2007/05/16, 07:03 PM
ok man if thats what it takes, and I wasn't bragging numbers i was stating a fact and proving a point. but I usually don't max except every 8-12 weeks, but I'll get those videos up asap.
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2007/05/16, 09:15 PM
This got childish very quickly.
I also don't see where I insulted anyone. Ask anyone that actually knows me, if I am insulting you, you will know it. Stop taking things so personally.
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Mortal by birth.
Strongman by the grace of god.
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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2007/05/18, 07:49 PM
yeah good point. you were trying to help me out and i over reacted... sorry about that man..
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2007/05/20, 12:02 AM
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Quoting from Zackariah1:
yeah good point. you were trying to help me out and i over reacted... sorry about that man..
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no harm no foul.
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Mortal by birth.
Strongman by the grace of god.
Blood Guts Sweat Chalk
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