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2003/12/04, 03:30 PM
I would like some of the bodybuilding veterans' opinions on this site:
http://www.hussman.org/fitness/index.htm
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--There are no versions of the truth.--
Jeff Goldblum, Jurassic Park II
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2003/12/04, 04:38 PM
From what I lookeda ti t seems harmless enough I will look at it more later if I can. I always go by "if it seems to good to be true" then it is ya know?
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/04, 05:02 PM
It seems so very detailed and if it holds merit, I'm going to be changing the way I workout. I don't think it's a "too good to be true," situation since it doesn't offer any miracles--I'm just wondering if all of the information on that page is legit, and if not, why?
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2003/12/04, 07:17 PM
I checked out the fat loss section, figured this would be a "hot spot" for people to visit. I must say, it is very informative, very well done and to the point. He also agrees with everything I preach over and over to all trying to lose fat. You cannot tap into your fat stores without creating a caloric deficit. I will read more on this site, but so far is pretty sound.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/04, 09:27 PM
Appreciate that bb1, please post again on this ASAP ;)
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2003/12/04, 09:33 PM
I have been one of the guys recommending this site to read to most of the men and women that ask questions about fat loss.
I feel that this site is very well written. Obviously the guy doesnt have much skill in laying out a site LOL but thats ok. It is pretty indepth and makes very good sense.
I havent heard anyone say anything negative about that site YET, and thats why i continue to recommend it.
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\"He who conquers himself is the mightiest warrior.\"
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2003/12/05, 09:45 AM
Well, upon further investigation of this site, he makes some very valid points, and much of it is right on. He is wrong about qhite a few things, some of which are major. His information lacks references, just strawman arguments. Such as one very very important point, if you wait one hour after workout to have your simple carbs/protein drink, you have missed your window of opportunity and area creating an insulin spike that is no longer necessary. Also, this will not impede fat burning in any way, it si simply a recovery drink. As I mentioned, he has no scientific backup, no references to back these arguments. And, reading deeper into his site, the reason becomes clear. He is but a mouthpiece for EAS!
Here is the scoop...Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended. To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver. The end result of this process? Hard earned muscle used as energy, and all potential gains becoming null and void.
To sum up the post-workout scenario: cortisol increases, and insulin decreases.
This scenario presents several needs to our starving bodies.
In order to get maximum results from our workout we must turn these glycogen and protein deficits into glycogen and protein surpluses immediately afterward.
So the two most important components of muscle recovery are replenishing the glycogen fuel burned during the workout and rebuilding the muscle proteins that are destroyed during the workout.
These processes are highly time-sensitive: the sooner they are allowed to begin, the faster they proceed and the more likely they will be completed in time for the next training session.
Cortisol can not be suppressed any faster than through a burst of insulin release from simple carbohydrate source. A prompt insulin discharge is highly beneficial in the post-training atmosphere because of the hormones uncanny ability to suppress cortisol. The faster this release takes place the faster protein and carbohydrates are delivered to the muscles to promote muscle recovery and adaptation.
Insulin is secreted by the pancreas automatically in response to rising levels of glucose or protein in the bloodstream.
Because of the body’s receptiveness to nutrition post-workout it is crucial to feed the “window of opportunity” as soon as possible following a maximum output of anaerobic threshold intensity.
Consuming and absorbing carbohydrates within 30 minutes of completing a workout will synthesize twice as much muscle glycogen as waiting two hours for consumption or absorption.
Consequently, both glycogen and protein synthesis proceed faster when carbohydrates and protein are consumed together.
In one study 10 healthy adults were subjected to 60 minutes of moderate-intensity exercise.
Half the subjects were fed a protein-carbohydrate supplement immediately after completion of their workouts. The remaining subjects were fed the same supplement three hours later.
Members of the “early” group replenished muscle glycogen 3.5 times faster than members of the “late” group. Muscle protein synthesis also proceeded more than three times faster in the early group.
This among countless other similar studies point to one clear goal…
Rapid absorption of post-workout nutrients! This is best accomplished from the insulin inducing carbohydrate-protein supplement combination.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/07, 12:25 AM
BB1,
Can you give some sources?
Also, ive been training doing the BFL thing and waiting for 1 hour before eating. WOuldnt eating within 30 minutes, or even right after a workout hinder fat burning since you want glycogen to be restored by fat instead of whatever you are consuming?
Help me to understand this because it is crucial for me.
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2003/12/07, 01:11 AM
Thanks for info. and clarification; I'm somewhat in a "gray" area as far as him being an EAS mouthpiece; he does love the company but he also recommends other products and recommends against one of their products I think. I think he blamed a management change.
Anyway, I will take what you've written with what he's written and come up with a more solid plan...mine is good, but this looks great.
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--There are no versions of the truth.--
Jeff Goldblum, Jurassic Park II
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2003/12/07, 11:20 AM
I was out of town yesterday. You want refereces, how about these?
References
1. Beckers, E.J., et al.: Comparison of aspiration and scientific graphic
Techniques for the measurement of gastric emptying rates in man
Gut, 33:115,1992.
2. Brouns, F., and Beckers, E.: Is the gut an athletic organ? Sports.
Med., 15:242, 1993.
3. Duchman, S.M., et al. Upper limit for intestinal absorption of a dilute glucose solution in men at rest. Med. Sci. Sports Exercise 29:
482,1997.
4. Gisolfi, C.V., et al.: Intestinal water absorption from select carbohydrate solutions in humans. /. Appl. Physiol., 7:2142, 1992.
5. Hargreaves, M., et al.: Influence of sodium on glucose bio avail ability during exercise. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., 26:365,1994.
6. Massicotte, D., et al.: Lack of effect of Nad and/or metoclopramide on exogenous ('^Cj-glucose oxidation during exercise.
Int. J. Sports Med., 17:165, 1996.
7. Maughan, R.J., and Lieper, J.B.: Sodium intake and post-exercise
re-hydration in man. Eur.]. Appl. Physiol., 71:311, 1995.
8. Maughan, R.J., et al.: Restoration of fluid balance after exercise-induced dehydration: effect of food and fluid intake. Int. J. Appl.
Physiol., 73:317, 1996.
9. Rehrer, N.J.;The maintenance of fluid balance during exercise.
Int. ]. Sports Med., 15:122, 1994.
10. Schedl, H.P., et al. Intestinal absorption during rest and exercise:
implications for formulating an oral re-hydration solution (ORS).
Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., 26:267, 1994.
11. Seiple, R.S., et al.: Gastric-emptying characteristics of two glucose
polymer-electrolyte solutions. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., 15:366,
1983.
12. Shi, X., et al.: Effects of carbohydrate type and concentration and
solution osmolality on water absorption. Med.Sci. Sports Exerc.,
27:1607.1995.
13. Vist, G.E., and Maughan, R.J.: Gastric emptying of ingested solutions in man: effect of beverage glucose concentration. Med. Sci.
Sports Exerc., 26:1269, 1994.
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Quoting from Firehawk734:
BB1,
Can you give some sources?
Also, ive been training doing the BFL thing and waiting for 1 hour before eating. WOuldnt eating within 30 minutes, or even right after a workout hinder fat burning since you want glycogen to be restored by fat instead of whatever you are consuming?
Help me to understand this because it is crucial for me.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/07, 11:29 AM
I cited one full study for you in my original post, here is a more scientific one...I put quotes around the most significant line to help you. Need I go on? I can back up what I put out. When I put up a post, it is not to argue, it is to help folks.
Effects of fat adaptation and carbohydrate restoration on prolonged endurance exercise.
Carey AL, Staudacher HM, Cummings NK, Stepto NK, Nikolopoulos V, Burke LM, Hawley JA.
Exercise Metabolism Group, Department of Human Biology and Movement Science, RMIT University, Bundoora, Victoria 3083, Australia.
We determined the effect of fat adaptation on metabolism and performance during 5 h of cycling in seven competitive athletes who consumed a standard carbohydrate (CHO) diet for 1 day and then either a high-CHO diet (11 g. kg(-1)x day(-1) CHO, 1 g x kg(-1) x day(-1) fat; HCHO) or an isoenergetic high-fat diet (2.6 g x kg(-1) x day(-1) CHO, 4.6 g x kg(-1) x day(-1) fat; fat-adapt) for 6 days. On day 8, subjects consumed a high-CHO diet and rested. On day 9, subjects consumed a preexercise meal and then cycled for 4 h at 65% peak O(2) uptake, followed by a 1-h time trial (TT). Compared with baseline, 6 days of fat-adapt reduced respiratory exchange ratio (RER) with cycling at 65% peak O(2) uptake . However, RER was restored by 1 day of high-CHO diet, preexercise meal, and CHO ingestion (0.88 +/- 0.01; P < 0.05). RER was higher after HCHO than fat-adapt (0.85 +/- 0.01, 0.89 +/- 0.01, and 0.93 +/- 0.01 for days 2, 8, and 9, respectively; P < 0.05). Fat oxidation during the 4-h ride was greater (171 +/- 32 vs. 119 +/- 38 g; P < 0.05) and CHO oxidation lower (597 +/- 41 vs. 719 +/- 46 g; P < 0.05) after fat-adapt. Power output was 11% higher during the TT after fat-adapt than after HCHO (312 +/- 15 vs. 279 +/- 20 W; P = 0.11). "In conclusion, compared with a high-CHO diet, fat oxidation during exercise increased after fat-adapt and remained elevated above baseline even after 1 day of a high-CHO diet and increased CHO availability."
Here is another...
Effect of fat adaptation and carbohydrate restoration on metabolism and performance during prolonged cycling.
Burke LM, Angus DJ, Cox GR, Cummings NK, Febbraio MA, Gawthorn K, Hawley JA, Minehan M, Martin DT, Hargreaves M.
Sports Science and Sports Medicine, Australian Institute of Sport, Belconnen 2616, Australia. louise.burke@ausport.gov.au
For 5 days, eight well-trained cyclists consumed a random order of a high-carbohydrate (CHO) diet (9.6 g. kg(-1). day(-1) CHO, 0.7 g. kg(-1). day(-1) fat; HCHO) or an isoenergetic high-fat diet (2.4 g. kg(-1). day(-1) CHO, 4 g. kg(-1). day(-1) fat; Fat-adapt) while undertaking supervised training. On day 6, subjects ingested high CHO and rested before performance testing on day 7 . With Fat-adapt, 5 days of high-fat diet reduced respiratory exchange ratio (RER) during cycling at 70% maximal O(2) consumption; this was partially restored by 1 day of high CHO . Corresponding RER values on HCHO trial were . During SS, estimated fat oxidation increased , whereas CHO oxidation decreased for Fat-adapt compared with HCHO. Tracer-derived estimates of plasma glucose uptake revealed no differences between treatments, suggesting muscle glycogen sparing accounted for reduced CHO oxidation. Direct assessment of muscle glycogen utilization showed a similar order of sparing (260 +/- 26 vs. 360 +/- 43 mmol/kg dry wt; P = 0.06). TT performance was 30.73 +/- 1.12 vs. 34.17 +/- 2.48 min for Fat-adapt and HCHO (P = 0.21). "These data show significant metabolic adaptations with a brief period of high-fat intake, which persist even after restoration of CHO availability." However, there was no evidence of a clear benefit of fat adaptation to cycling performance.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/07, 11:43 AM
BB1 i was not saying you were ARGUING with me. Ive been believing something else and you have challenged it. Do I believe you? Hell yes I do. Your experience and credentials speak for themselves.
SO, i just want to know...when exactly is the best time to eat after cardio and weighttraining? is it within 30 minutes? Those studies are alittle bit too scientific for me lol.
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2003/12/07, 11:45 AM
Firehawk, I urge you to re read this paragraph from my original post.
Here is the scoop...Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended. To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver. The end result of this process? Hard earned muscle used as energy, and all potential gains becoming null and void.
Now, sure you will be utilizing some fat, but at what cost? Your muscle is being cannabalized at a very rapid rate by cortisol. If you understand what cortisol is and does, you have to understand this. If you wait one hour before replenishing, how much muscle(fat burning furnace for all the time) have you sacrificed for a bit of fat burning that will proceed anyway as per the above studies? You most definitely will lose weight, but at a very high cost.
You do what you want, just trying to save you some long term progress to reach a shorter term goal.
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Quoting from Firehawk734:
BB1,
Can you give some sources?
Also, ive been training doing the BFL thing and waiting for 1 hour before eating. WOuldnt eating within 30 minutes, or even right after a workout hinder fat burning since you want glycogen to be restored by fat instead of whatever you are consuming?
Help me to understand this because it is crucial for me.
=============
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/07, 01:38 PM
I want to do the best thing for me, and it seems as though i should be eating a meal much sooner than 1 hour. Ill eat after 20 minutes then from now on.
Thanks BB1
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2003/12/07, 01:47 PM
This is the bottom line. If you wait 60 minutes post training to consume simple carbs/protein, you are letting cortisol run rampant, eating muscle tissue. Then when you have a simple carb drink blood sugars are most probably restored or close to it already, so some if not all of the simple carbs may be wasted. Now, sure you will definitely lose weight faster, no doubt. But at the expense of some decent amount of lean tissue. And this is what you should be striving to keep at all costs.
As to when is best, here is the best scenario. Mix your simple carb/protein drink within 30 minutes, no longer, better if immediately post workout and consume 1/2 immediately. Take 60 minutes from that time to consume the rest, sipping on it, after an intense workout, you can have numerous dives. This will regulate blood sugars and stop cortisol, while no danger of overconsumption. This is after weight training.
After cardio sessions, it is prudent to wait 60 minutes, there is no dispute here. Then have a supplement of protein and fats such as flax oil, and some fiber like a cup of veggies or even some flax seed.(great fiber if not crushed). The reason for fats here is it has no impact on insulin, so the fat burning process you achieved from raising of your baseline metabolism.
The site you are reading, is great. He puts quality info in there, and 90% is accurate if not more. I became concerned at the point where his supplement timing became evident, along with a few other points. I was desperately looking for references for backup of what he states, and found none. Then when all of his supplement regimine, all EAS, which reminds of the ads in the magazine where you think you are reading an article, and it turns out to be an ad for muscle tech. They are getting very slick in their way of selling products. Even including how to "make your own", etc. is still selling EAS, for very few will ever attempt this when they can go out and buy a prepackaged deal.
Hope this helps to clear up a bit, and it should definitely help to preserve a bit of lean tissue.
Quoting from Firehawk734:
SO, i just want to know...when exactly is the best time to eat after cardio and weighttraining? is it within 30 minutes? Those studies are alittle bit too scientific for me lol.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/07, 07:52 PM
Thank you very much BB1. The last thing ive ever wanted was to sacrifice muscle, even if i knew i could burn extra fat off doing it. In the long run, having the muscle there will burn more.
Thanks for taking the time to break it down. I used Myoplex (EAS) for about 5 weeks a yr ago and i believe still to this day that it was causing me heart problems. I was getting very abnormal beats (not life threatening but every scary). Turns out, i have a condition called atrial fibrillation , however it has never been triggered ever prior to me taking that, and since i quit, 1 yr ago, i have had no problems still, even though i work out very hard every day. So as you may expect, I am very against taking ANY supplement other than a multi-vitamin.
I did not know about the (less than 30 min) rule after weightlifting and the 60 min rule after cardio. I will change my diet accordingly.
Thanks
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"He who conquers himself is the mightiest warrior."
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2003/12/09, 12:39 PM
This is great thanks guys!
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2003/12/09, 12:50 PM
All I know is this: I am a average joe, my training is not very scientific it is tried and tested by me in the gym. I used to not worry about eating right after my workout. BUT, since I got back into the gym about 2 moths ago after each workout I will have some protein and carbs right as soon as I get home. I eat real food cause well we do not have money for my to have shakes etc. Not only have my workouts gone thru the roof. I do not always have a great work out but I am seeing real results. Today I am typing this in a pant size I could not get into 3 months ago. Yet I look larger muscle wise. Thanks to all on this post to bring out this info I am sure I am not the only one that benefited!!!!
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2004/01/03, 02:59 AM
Now I understand how carbs and protien are needed as soon as possible after you drop your last weight, but my question is about food choices. I usually drink some sort of powerade while im working out as well as water, I believe this keeps me from compleatly depleating my glycogen stores before my workout is over.
Aprox. 10 mins after my workout I eat a large bowl of instant rice adn a protien shake with 40g of protien and 60g of fructose and a bannana. Now ive read the fructose I am consuming dosent convert into glucose fast enough for a post workout meal, should I be using somthing else like malto or somthing? What do you guys put in your post workout drinks?
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2004/01/03, 10:30 AM
dextrose and malto. And school is out on drinking glucose during training. See, you want to shut down cortisol, but on the other hand it is useful for breaking down tissue during training, which is what you want to rebuild. This makes your recovery drink that much more potent, and will help increase your insulin sensitivity.
Don't have the fructose and banana(more fructose). This tops off liver glycogen,(useful, but not right now) which right now is non essential and reverts from metabolic pathways for building muscle.
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THE NATURAL WAY IS THE ONLY TRUE PATH TO SUCCESS, PRIDE, JOY, HAPPINESS, LONG TERM FULFILLMENT AND SELF-ESTEEM!
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2004/01/03, 10:34 AM
Sorry, made the last post under Sandys name, didn't realize she was on last. But, it is my reply to your question.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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