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2006/01/28, 08:19 AM
http://www.ruggedmag.com/index.php?type=Article&i=2&a=2
"Some strength coaches will try to tell you that if you barely complete the last repetition of a given set and would not be able to perform any subsequent repetitions, you have trained that set to failure. This is distorting the English language. When did you fail? You didn't! <<<<You fail when you attempt something and do not succeed.>>>> So how does this relate to fatigue of the central nervous system? Well, attempting to move a load and having to set it back down because you are unable to lift it again is extremely taxing to the CNS"
I am just trying to understand if this is just semantics...so if I am fighting for my last rep and get it....that's not failure? is this a commonly held belief?
"Also, the use of forced reps (additional reps performed with the help of a spotter when you can no longer perform reps with the given load by yourself), is completely pointless and a waste of time. This further taxes the CNS and adds absolutely nothing to the stimulus generated to the working muscle."
Wanted opinions on this statement...I cannot make such definitive statements about anything with few exceptions....am I missing something?
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2006/01/28, 11:40 AM
Depends. Everytime I post not to train to failure, someone tells me that whenever I max, I am training to failure. I disagree. I don't fail. Westside preaches the practice of never going for a PR unless you are POSITIVE you can get it, as do many others, myself included (with exceptions). Not only is failure extremely taxing on the nervous system, but for a powerlifter, it can destroy you psychologically.
It's good that you don't like blanket statements. I think I can explain it though.
Think of training as a curve. Lets say that that it is your 8rm on the bar. 2 reps will be very easy on your CNS. 4 should feel good. 6 and you should be struggling, this is wear you are starting to train your cns to recruit muscle. 7 is starting to tax your cns. 8 is taxing it. Not getting that ninth rep is very taxing on your cns, and reps past that with a spotter will be putting a large amount of stress on the CNS.
It's not like 8 reps is ok and then all of a sudden you fail and THEN your destroying your nervous system. As you come closer to failure and past, the stress increases.
However, it has been shown that even 1 set of med rep training to failure can increase recovery time by up to 24 hours. For someone that trains sporadically, this may be ok, but lets say for me, I'm training tbt 3 days a week with training on weekends, it would kill me.
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~Steve
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/01/30, 12:20 AM
m57t but that's my point, I almost never take that last rep where I fail...I do rep just before and then I know that I can't do the next rep, so I just stop....I consider that failure because I know I can't do another rep....but according to the above statement , it's not....
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2006/01/30, 06:23 PM
now your just playing with terminology. What does it matter what you call it, as long as you understand the concepts.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/01/31, 06:49 PM
But that's the idea, what I call failure is not failure in the eyes of someone else. But yea it's a mute point.
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2006/01/31, 10:08 PM
Most trainees know their body well enough to know whether it's their last rep or not. Besides, the whole point of what I was saying is to NOT fail, regardless of what you call the point you stop at.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/01/31, 10:57 PM
Hey guys, whats up...been watching this thread and know it's one of those that comes back around every so often. Most of them end up with people agreeing that it's just one of those statements that's open to different interpretations by different people.
I searched thru a bunch of old ones so I know. I did find one from 08/13/2003 before you guys joined in which bb1 replied to that seemed to touch on it in the way I think matters most...health, both mental and physical.
Anyway I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by quoting bb1 but I thought you guys may find this info beneficial.
Here's the quote.
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Quoting from bb1fit:
Working to failure is when you cannot complete a set, you are doing a rep but cannot complete it due to overload. Meaning you literally cannot move the weight another inch, then beyond failure is with a spot to help you get out a couple more. This is basically overload, which intices muscle growth with the correct diet. Working to failure is normally with fairly heavy weights. This is a very brutal way of training and can be very hard on you, and if done every time you train, this is definitely where down time(a week off) comes in. The truth is the muscles can usually keep up, but it is the tendons, ligaments, joints, nerve endings that give out first, not to mention your mental state. So, 8-10 weeks of this training, a good idea for a break.
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Seize the day!
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2006/02/01, 12:41 AM
A few points..
I disagree when he says 8-10 weeks. That is a very old quote, and I would like to hear what Ron has to say on the matter now. 8-10 weeks of this type of training would be very brutal on the body, and I would be surprised if Ron hasn't changed his views on this. My views change even year to year, and situation to situation, it is naive to think that one is not constantly growing as new knowledge comes in.
Second- This is a powerlifting forum. While training past failure may be helpful where hypertrophy is concerned, it will not be nearly as productive towards strength gains.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/01, 04:36 AM
2-2.5 months of training to complete and utter failure would be suicide for just about anyone, especially in a row....at least as it was described in that quotation....but as wrestler pointed out our knowledge and opionions change every year so what he may have said 2-3 years ago may not be his view now...
My point was this:
People criticize training to failure and advise to leave a couple reps in the tank so to speak. I however disagree with that assertion and like training to the last complete rep I can do at any rep range. I call this failure but as I found out it's not. It's coming close to failure but not actually achieving it. So it seems like training to failure with a 'revised' definition has been a miscalculation rather than a direct objective. Those moments took a toll on me so I definitely agree with Westside assertion to only go for a max if you're positive you can get it. True failure can take weeks and often months out of the progress both mentally and physically.
Wrestler wouldn't training past failure be something for strength rather than hypertrophy? Since muscle failure is achieved considerably faster than CNS fatigue?
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2006/02/01, 09:59 AM
CNS fatigue is not always necessarily slower than muscular fatigue, especially with heavy weights.
The best I can explain it is this: Training past failure induces a very large amount of stress on the CNS. This is because the CNS is trying to recruit muscle fibers that do not want to respond. This is equivalent to training at 80% as opposed to 100%. Training for strength, we want to MAXIMIZE our CNS output, not train it HARD under subpar conditions. Training harder will not maximize CNS output, our goal in strength. We are always looking to reach 100% (yes I am aware thats not yet possible), and so what would be more productive, training with lower reps over and over again closer to 100%, or training 2 sets that only start at 100% and then drop to 50%? I'm not sure that made sense, if not, I'll try to explain it again.
There is a statement, practices doesnt make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. So, why would you want to train under sub-par conditions?
Also, you have to understand, the CNS takes longer to recover.
Creatine stores in your muscles are replenished to about 85% after a 3 minute rest. Since at 4 minutes, this number is only around 88%, a 3 minute rest seems to be optimal. However, have you ever seen a powerlifter take a 5-10 minute break? This is because at 3 minutes tbs, the CNS is still recovering from a heavy set.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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2006/02/01, 01:45 PM
good points wrestler...after 3 minutes I still cant catch my breath after all out deadlifts/squats...heh...did you mean 30 min? LOL
Would 100% recruitment be a good idea though? since that may potentially lead to structural damage....ie lifting at absolute strength...It would be fun though to lift at 99% true capacity or at least knowing at which point our body achieves it...
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2006/02/01, 08:38 PM
Elite level powerlifters only recruit about 85%. So I don't think that 100% is something you have to worry bout.
You are right though. 100% is the point at which a woman lifts a car off of her child. However, the next day, she realizes she tore her lower back in two and ruptured a few disc. So yes, good point.
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Iron and chalk.
Pain is only temporary, it is in your mind. If you can still walk, then you can still run.
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