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2003/12/11, 04:46 PM
Anyone ever discuss this here?
Im getting very confused. Read this thread:
http://www.discussfitness.com/showthread.php?t=15501
We are discussing whether a program such as MAX OT where the principle is to train to concentric failure is worse than stopping just shy of failure, and also if working out more often than 1 time per week could result in better gains due to the fact that you do not train to failure.
I would love to get BB1's opinion, Jdelt's opinion, and Mutt's opinion for sure, and then anyone else who might have some input.
Thanks
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2003/12/11, 08:25 PM
I just read your post and I am also confused on how often to train each body part per week. I read so many articles that say train each body part once a week and others say twice a week.
I am currently training each body part twice a week except for legs (once). Many people are telling me to go back to once a week.
Any thoughts or advice on this?
Thanks
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Mike
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2003/12/11, 08:34 PM
I think following MAX OT is a great way to work out, and I am definitely going to try it later next yr. But it seems like the further you look in reasearch the more confused you get.
It probably boils down to what works for each individual, which I hate that answer. lol
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2003/12/11, 09:47 PM
Here is my take on this, as well as the program that I am presently practicing:
I train heavy one week, doing one muscle - and one muscle ONLY - each day. This really trashes a certain set of muscle fibers which is good, but that type of fiber needs more than one week to recover.
So, week two is still training every body part, only I do lighter weight training. Heavy week is 4 sets, 6 - 10 repetitions, 4 exercises. Light week is 3 sets, 12-15 repetitions, 3 exercises.
This system allows you to really isolate and focus on individual muscles, while the week 2 workout allows you to maintain while still actively recovering from the previous heavy week workouts.
I've been doing this program since I heard about it through Dr. Hatfield at the ISSA, and I've definitely seen more progress in less time than ever before.
-- Aaron
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Aaron M. Potts
Aarons Personal Training
http://www.aaronspersonaltraining.com
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2003/12/11, 10:54 PM
There are literally thousands of training programs, and tons of training protocols. In the end, it comes down to this no matter what route you choose.Muscle fibers are acitivated by motor neurons. These vary within all muscles. The fiber complex itself can be/is described as a motor unit. When you do a repetition, not all fibers are involved. Your fast twitch fibers will bear the brunt of the work load, till they exhaust, and the smaller ones then have to take over. Our goal as bodybuilders(to build lean tissue), is to recruit and use as many fibers as possible. So, if you do not go to failure, you do not recruit and use/stimulate all possible fibers. If you go to failure, you will be of course training/stimulating a larger amount of muscle fibers. This is the goal of all workouts worth their weight, and all try to achieve this in different ways. The above approach is one way, and can work for many, but may not for all. It comes back down to one workout scheme is not right for everyone. For instance, my prefferential way to do it is with heavy/light supersets. First exhaust the fast twitch fibers with as heavy a weight as possible, and immediately upon this hit the muscle with a set of light weight reps till failure, as the slow twitch fibers will have to bear the brunt of the work at this point. Thouroughly trashing the fast twitch first is imparative to this though. But anyway, the science is clear, in order to gain lean tissue, the more fiber stimulation you can recruit, the more muscle you will work and build, and this comes with failure only.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/12, 12:16 AM
SO BB1, why do some argue that training to just before failure is better? Why do they say that training to just before failure allows you to work the muscles more than 1 time per week, which then allows for more use and better coordination ? Ive heard these points argued and I dont know how to answer them..
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2003/12/12, 12:33 AM
Could someone please define what 'failure' means please.
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2003/12/12, 12:55 AM
Failure is when you, by way of will or lactic acid, cannot complete another rep in a given exercise.
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--There are no versions of the truth.--
Jeff Goldblum, Jurassic Park II
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2003/12/12, 07:03 AM
BB1 how about the reverse of what you just stated. How does that work. For example I will do light weight for may first rep, 10x25lbs, 8x30 etc. Will this work as well ???
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2003/12/12, 07:51 AM
As BB said to each his own something that I completely believe in. What it comes down to is for the most part there is no one right way to train. However, that said there is defintely some rules to follow. I would not suggest that some one with less than 6months of training jump into a "heavy weight" style of lifting. That is not to say they shouls not use heavier weights. Rather they should keep them lighter and focus on learning the lift. This would do a few things for them. One is cut down on potential injuries. Another is that it allows a good core strenght to be built. AS a beginner my self I went 2x a week for each body part. As I progressed I found that I respond better to one body part a week. I train heavy for 4-6wks then have 2 weeks of lighter training to recover, this works for ME. I have not found another person that this workout works for as well as it does for me. The best way to see if it works is to try it. I know I have, and most likely so has anyone with 5+ yrs of training, tried almost every way to work out till I found the one that works for me. I think that training to failure is a good thing when used right.
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LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!
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2003/12/12, 10:07 AM
What you are accomplishing with this protocol is basically pre-exhaustion. This is yet another technique, and really useful for harder muscles to stimulate(larger ones).
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Quoting from starbell:
BB1 how about the reverse of what you just stated. How does that work. For example I will do light weight for may first rep, 10x25lbs, 8x30 etc. Will this work as well ???
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/12, 10:10 AM
starbell, as to the above post, I am assuming that these are not warmup sets, that you have done those already and are in your "working" sets. If not, then these are simply warmup sets if you go right after this to your heavier weight.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/12, 11:07 AM
Are warm-up sets recommended then? if so what type of exercise and rep amount would anybody recommend for each muscle group and would they be just lightish weights used.?
Thanks!!!
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2003/12/12, 11:27 AM
Pardon my chiming in here. Yes, warm up sets are necessary in order to avoid injury. Going directly to heavy weights without warming up the muscles will cause injury.
Now, I think that one thing not discussed here regarding workouts to failure is one's ability to recover. A notable olympic strength trainer (Ian King) has always believed that one does not have to work to complete failure EVERY SINGLE WORKOUT in order to gain mass or develop muscles. This interferes with recovery. He advocates that you can affect all of your muscle fibers without having to work to complete failure.
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2003/12/12, 12:39 PM
yes to your first statement, warmups are essential. That is an entirely different thing than this thread started out with.
Now, the second part. Yes, here is another example of a well respected trainer advocating a different protocol. And this I totally agree with. I love Ian King, as well as Charles Poliquin, who advocates a 9-12 rep range for hypertrophy. So, again, this all boils down to my post I have made over and over and over again. It is essential to find what works for YOU! Going to failure each and every time is a very brutal workload, and can impair your recovery. This is why it is essential if you choose this protocol, you take a week to 2 weeks off to recouperate. The bottom line is try different things, find your niche'. Old Chinese proverb....If you throw enough shit against the wall, some of it is bound to stick!!!
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Quoting from rpacheco:
Pardon my chiming in here. Yes, warm up sets are necessary in order to avoid injury. Going directly to heavy weights without warming up the muscles will cause injury.
Now, I think that one thing not discussed here regarding workouts to failure is one's ability to recover. A notable olympic strength trainer (Ian King) has always believed that one does not have to work to complete failure EVERY SINGLE WORKOUT in order to gain mass or develop muscles. This interferes with recovery. He advocates that you can affect all of your muscle fibers without having to work to complete failure.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/12, 12:45 PM
One more note, I just made another post in another thread as to recovery ability. This is a must for you to find as a trainee. We all vary here, some folks can do 2 a day workouts, where others, can barely recover from one medium workout. It does not matter how well respected the workout "maker" is, how well respected and what he has accomplished, you are not going to hear about his "failures" with folks. You are going to hear about the great ones he has coached. So, use your head and look for the signs of overtraining. If you start to feel them, drop back for a bit and recover. Again, use my ancient Chinese proverb above....
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2003/12/13, 07:15 PM
BB
What are the signs of overtraining?
I'm a bit confused on how many times I should work out each group.
Any tips will help.
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2003/12/14, 04:37 PM
Symptoms od overtraining
Workout Symptoms
Usual workouts feel more difficult
Early fatigue during workouts
Faster heart rate with less effort
Decreased strength
Decreased coordination
Physical challenges seem too hard
Decreased performance on strength, speed, or endurance testing
Physical Symptoms
Persistent fatigue
Ongoing muscle soreness
Loss of appetite
Increased aches and pains
Increase in overuse injuries
Frequent colds or infections
Nonphysical Symptoms
Difficulty sleeping
Feelings of irritation or anger
Feelings of depression
Lack of motivation
Fear of competition
Difficulty concentrating
Increased sensitivity to emotional stress
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Quoting from lidohouse:
BB
What are the signs of overtraining?
I'm a bit confused on how many times I should work out each group.
Any tips will help.
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THE NATURAL WAY IS THE ONLY TRUE PATH TO SUCCESS, PRIDE, JOY, HAPPINESS, LONG TERM FULFILLMENT AND SELF-ESTEEM!
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2003/12/14, 04:51 PM
Thanks!
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