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2004/01/25, 04:56 PM
I started over 2 months ago with insuline spiking after my workouts. Now, mind you, I have NOT changed my diet from diets past, and I have NOT done anything different with my workout routines then with past routines. In 2+ months time my strength and muscle gains are astounding. I called myself "Mr. Plateu" but now I've been able to break through that barrier I was always so used to. My bench went up 6%....deadlift: 8%....squat: 8% My bench is at an All-time high and I don't even compete anymore! This is the real deal folks. I suggest spiking for you hard-gainers. Geez, I sound like an advertisement, sorry.
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/01/25, 05:10 PM
I asked some questions during that post but never got answers. I really didn't understand what you guys were talking about.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/25, 06:29 PM
neither do I. how exactly do you get an "insuline spike"?
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2004/01/25, 08:12 PM
Well guys, here's what I think is goin' on:
Insulin spiking is the act of raising one's insulin response very quickly - typically immediately after a workout. Theory goes that, on a nutrition plan which limits high-glycemic carbs (I won't argue degrees here, but I'd bet that JDelts probably isn't doing any refined sugars or high-glycemic carbs all day long - probably eating so clean that his insulin response looks like a snake full of buckshot), your blood sugar stays low, keeping your body in an ideal state to burn fat (what JDelts wants because, well, clearly he is obese). As the theory goes, a very high-glycemic catalyst (a sweet fruit juice, for example) along with the usual post-workout protein (whey, for example) will speed that protein into the muscles quicker than sh!t through a goose (image a dry sponge as your muscles, whey is a dry powder, and the high-glycemic catalyst is a liquid that allows the whey to get sucked up into the sponge much quicker than without). This turns out to be a very good thing! You end up getting the benefits of a low-glycemic, insulin-moderating nutrition plan (fat burning) most of the day, while (1) feeding the muscles very quickly (very imporatant), and (2)reducing cortisol (also very important) immediately after your strenuous workout -- when your muscles (and body) can benefit from it the most.
Or... maybe not... What the hell do I know. If I'm right, then you got your answers. If I'm wrong, I guarantee that you'll get 200 new posts correcting me and giving your the right info. Either way, you win!
Oh, just kidding JDelts, on the obese thingy. Don't beat me up! I'm old and my bones are very brittle.
TSMD
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2004/01/25, 08:19 PM
Bingo tsmd...I'm obese! Good way to describe the spike.
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/01/25, 08:23 PM
Dave, I'll call you from now on.... Thanks, I got it. Now the first spike post makes sense.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/25, 08:40 PM
Call anytime, Charlie.
Only problem is, by following MY advice, you may end up built like me!
TSMD
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2004/01/25, 08:41 PM
Or he can be obese like me...
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/01/25, 08:44 PM
Shut up fatty! I hate you.
TSMD
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2004/01/25, 08:55 PM
The "window of opportunity". Use it, it is your best friend in the muscle game.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2004/01/25, 09:03 PM
Everybody says "immediately after" workout, BB1. And I understand "the sooner after the workout,the better", but at what point after the workout does that window of opportunity close?
In other words, should I chug my "whey and tang" while I'm in the shower, minutes after my workout, or is it okay to shower, shave, dress, leave the gym, and drink in the car on my way to work (15-20 minutes after workout)?
TSMD
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2004/01/25, 09:13 PM
If my hydrozilated whey is sweetened and chocolate flavored, isn't it sweetened with malto or dexrto?? The websight doesn't say.
Dave I am pretty sure you gotta do it in the shower.
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/25, 09:17 PM
I think any high-glycemic carb will do, but I think that dextrose is preferred over all other -troses (sucrose, fructose, lactose, etc) by the insulin-spike eficianados.
Do it in the shower? I HAVE done it in the shower...???
OH, drink the whey in the shower! Got it! Thanks.
TSMD
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2004/01/25, 09:22 PM
Some are sweetened with non-natural pretend sugars that taste like sugar, but have no effect on insulin levels. If this is the case, then you'd need to add dextrose to your whey. You should be able to tell by the Carbohydrates on the label. If they are low (2, 4, 6 grams or so), then it's probably unsweetened, or sweetened artificially. If it's in the 20's or so, I'd bet it has some ***-trose in it.
TSMD
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2004/01/25, 10:07 PM
Is it not advisable to mix protein with lots of high fructose corn syrup when spiking or is that the whole idea? Please excuse my ignorance as I try to become enlightened about the subject. Would it be best to A) mix whey protein with the fruit juice, drink it, and then drink lots of water after workout or B) mix whey protein with water, drink it, and then drink the fruit juice later? Pardon me for not being Captain Obvious if the question is dumb. Thanks for helping me.
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2004/01/25, 10:21 PM
I think my question was answered in the previous post by TSMD. I'll mix the whey with the fruit juice after workouts. But the question about how fast to drink it after workouts wasn't answered. Does a person chug the "whey and tang" right after his last set or wait until the shower? In the realm of life, does it really matter? I'm having some fun with you guys... Thanks.
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2004/01/26, 08:15 AM
Yo MB,
I was teasing about the TANG! Although most fruit juices are loaded with sugar (fructose), most of the experts I've heard say you should actually use dextrose as the spiking agent. I suppose fruit juice or Tang would still work to some degree, though...
I only suggested fruit juice or tang because they also have a high-glycemic index (but probably not as good as dextrose). I am NOT the expert at this. Maybe JDelts or BB1 can give us the real poop.
TSMD
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2004/01/26, 10:25 AM
Within 30 minutes is optimal. Nothing digests immediately, and the sooner you get it started, the better. Chug 1/2 immediately, then sip the rest for the remainder of 1 hour.
And Charlie, make sure you have dextrose and malto. These two in combination are ideal, and measured to your needs is best. Fruit juice only in a pinch, as it is as TSM says high in fructose, this tops off liver glycogen and steers metabolic paths away from muscle building to liver storage for a later use. Fructose tops off liver glycogen, so is not wanted here. I can lay out the science behind dextrose and malto if you like.
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2004/01/26, 10:30 AM
No science thanks. I confuse easily. I'll get the dextrose and malto in my next order of whey. What percentage??
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/26, 02:29 PM
I must say that I am also a convert to insulin spiking. I've been doing it for 5 weeks in conjunction with my bulking diet, and in that time have gained 10 lbs and set new personal bests in bench and squat. All praise the insulin spike!
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OSU Law Rugby....specializing in personal injury and pain & suffering.
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2004/01/26, 03:46 PM
SO, it IS okay to take in copmplex carbs throughout the day before youre workout? what about simple carbs the rest of the day, after spiking?
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2004/01/26, 05:11 PM
Jdelts.....how exactly are you getting your insuline spikes??
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"Without Pains, there come no Gains" -Benjamin Franklin
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2004/01/26, 07:08 PM
Absolutely no simple carbs after your insulin spike if you can help it. The key to the insulin spike being even more effective is insulin sensitivity rather than insulin resistant. The more insulin sensitive you are, the more potent your post workout drink becomes.
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Quoting from big_j_scf:
SO, it IS okay to take in copmplex carbs throughout the day before youre workout? what about simple carbs the rest of the day, after spiking?
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2004/01/26, 07:27 PM
Ron said
" And Charlie, make sure you have dextrose and malto. These two in combination are ideal, and measured to your needs is best. Fruit juice only in a pinch, as it is as TSM says high in fructose, this tops off liver glycogen and steers metabolic paths away from muscle building to liver storage for a later use. Fructose tops off liver glycogen, so is not wanted here. I can lay out the science behind dextrose and malto if you like."
Charlie said
"No science thanks. I confuse easily. I'll get the dextrose and malto in my next order of whey."
1 What percentage of malto and dextrose to I tell them to put in the whey?
2 And when you say simple carbs vs comlpex carbs you mean glycemic index , right??
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Living well is the best revenge.
Charlie
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2004/01/26, 08:52 PM
Sorry Charlie, I missed your post. I have laid this out so many times for folks I figured everyone who is a regular knew. If trying to gain, then 1/2 your bodyweight divided equally between dextrose and malto, with 1/4 the protein. In other words, if you weigh 200 lbs., then 50 gr. each dextrose and malto, and 50 gr. of protein. If trying to lose bodyfat, then 1/4 your bodyweight is a good place to start, again if you weigh 200 lbs., then 25 gr. each of malto and dextrose, but keep protein the same. Adjust this as needed for intensity of your workouts. For instance, on leg days I would use probably the full allotment, but on a day where you are just doing arms, even though you work out hard, the muscles are smaller and less energy expenditure, so I would at least cut it in half. Go by your energy expenditure when dieting.(you want the insulin spike, but you don't want excess of course).
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Quoting from charlie826:
Ron said
" And Charlie, make sure you have dextrose and malto. These two in combination are ideal, and measured to your needs is best. Fruit juice only in a pinch, as it is as TSM says high in fructose, this tops off liver glycogen and steers metabolic paths away from muscle building to liver storage for a later use. Fructose tops off liver glycogen, so is not wanted here. I can lay out the science behind dextrose and malto if you like."
Charlie said
"No science thanks. I confuse easily. I'll get the dextrose and malto in my next order of whey."
1 What percentage of malto and dextrose to I tell them to put in the whey?
2 And when you say simple carbs vs comlpex carbs you mean glycemic index , right??
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2004/01/27, 12:05 AM
Why ya gotta pick on the fat kid TSMD?
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Quoting from tenorsaxmandave:
Shut up fatty! I hate you.
TSMD
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/01/27, 08:11 AM
Oh, please! Like you even know what "fat" is! C'mon J! What are ya holding on to, maybe 5%? 6% tops? You're probably measuring your body fat in tenths of a percent, too. I round mine up to the nearest 10%.
I really don't hate YOU... just your GUTS (or lack thereof)... and your dedication and your determination and your motivation and your will-power and your results...
I am going to add an insulin spiking component to my nutrition plan. However, be forewarned that if my results are anything less than stellar, (and because it's far easier to blame others for my own lack of discipline), I will blame YOU personally, I will hunt you down, sit my fat a$$ on you and force feed you Oreos (sorry Mutt) until your Tanita scale blows a fuse and you know what fat REALLY is!LOL
Sorry. Saxman had another episode. I'm better now.
Great progress and motivation, JD. Keep up the good work.
TSMD
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2004/01/27, 01:25 PM
mmmmmmmmm....OREOS! Just make sure you don't sit on my face so you can force feed the oreos. Actually, until my first competition I was NEVER below 13-15% BF. I was always "stocky"/"big-boned"/"he would be attractive if he lost weight"/"too big for me"...then I found a wonderful girl who liked my massiveness and accepted my bulging muscles...I will marry her.
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/01/27, 02:00 PM
So Jdelts, when you were competing, what was your BF% in the off season? And what was it during? Just curious...
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**_Robert_**
Pain is temporary; glory is forever!
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2004/01/28, 12:21 PM
Yo JDelts,
Hang on to her! She sounds like the 2nd best wife in the whole world (next to Mrs. TSMD).
TSMD
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2004/02/05, 03:21 PM
So, I was confused and thought that you couldn't have simple sugars, but complex carbs were ok, but that has nothing to do with it right? it all depends on the foods glycemic index. so that mean even bread takes away from your insulin sensitivity, but apples which are simple, actually have a low glycemic index. so apples are fine, but i should not eat bread or potatoes? Do I finally understand? And if I don't, i would appreciate being corrected. Thanks :)
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2004/02/05, 03:24 PM
Wait, i forgot some stuff. So, even though milk has 13 grams of sugar but a low glycemic index, is it ok? and what do you do for complex carbs for enrgy throughout the day? if potatoes and bread are high glycemic? is pasta high also? sorry for so many questions
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2004/02/05, 07:36 PM
usually between 13-15% but I need to keep it lower. 13-15% is somewhat normal for me though, for some its alot for the off-season.
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Quoting from rpacheco:
So Jdelts, when you were competing, what was your BF% in the off season? And what was it during? Just curious...
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/02/05, 07:37 PM
Oh yeah...I was 4%-5%....too high!
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/02/05, 07:53 PM
big j I have similar questions. If I understood correctly the hi GI carbs should be consumed before the spike. Low GI carbs after. I have no idea the answer to your milk and bread question. I have both before I spike.Hopefully some one will read this.
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Its like herding cats.
Charlie
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2004/02/05, 08:47 PM
You understand. Have brown rice, beans of almost any kind, sweet potatoes, oatmeal...all great complex carbs. The only time you should have simple carbs to create the ideal insulin sensitivity is post workout.
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Quoting from big_j_scf:
Wait, i forgot some stuff. So, even though milk has 13 grams of sugar but a low glycemic index, is it ok? and what do you do for complex carbs for enrgy throughout the day? if potatoes and bread are high glycemic? is pasta high also? sorry for so many questions
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
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2004/02/05, 09:41 PM
This post is making me feel like a total dumbass. Is there a book that lays this whole procedure out???
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Its like herding cats.
Charlie
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2004/02/05, 11:04 PM
That last sounded negative and wasn't my intention. These posts get disjointed and I would like to read more in depth about this topic:]
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Its like herding cats.
Charlie
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2004/02/29, 07:55 PM
If I split my creatine intake into twice a day, 5 grams each, on workout days, should I use an insulin spiking delivery system both times or just post workout?
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2004/02/29, 07:57 PM
Just post . You need to earn it.
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Some times life is like herding cats.
Charlie
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2004/02/29, 08:19 PM
So just taking it with water in the AM is ok?
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2004/02/29, 08:23 PM
Ithink pre and post workout is better if you do it twice. I only do it once post workout and my tub says 5 to 7 grams per day. When all else fails read the directions.:big_smile:
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Some times life is like herding cats.
Charlie
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2004/02/29, 09:13 PM
well, when I was taking cell tech, it said to take 10g. I now am taking my homemade delivery system, but 10g at once is hard on my stomach.
So now I am more confused. Still not sure if I should use the insulin spiking delivery system twice or only post workout.
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2004/02/29, 09:34 PM
Only post workout.
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Some times life is like herding cats.
Charlie
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2004/02/29, 10:24 PM
Only spike your insulin post workout. More will simply decrease your insulin sensitivity. There are some folks who do a small spike in the morning, upon waking to snap out of a catabolic state from the overnight fast. If you do this, it should be a small rise, just enough to raise insulin levels a bit to push some nutrients quickly into the muscles. This is an optional thing. When I do this, I just use malto, and about 20 gr. only. This can also be a time to have a higher glycemic carb breakfast and achieve much the same thing. Depends on your goals here. If you are trying to burn fat, I would not advise this though. It is proven scientific fact that the body uses fat at rest, so if trying to burn fat, it would be best to continue with a low glycemic breakfast, and keep the fat burning going.:big_smile:
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If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....
bb1fit@freetrainers.com
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2004/02/29, 11:18 PM
will cell-tech help with spiking your insulin post-workout?
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2004/03/01, 12:48 AM
YES...with the amount of dextrose and ALA, its pretty potent.
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Quoting from JustinE22:
will cell-tech help with spiking your insulin post-workout?
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/03/01, 01:28 AM
Sounds good jdelts i thought so with 75g, didn't know if it was the right kind. Should i just chug the cell tech and chug 1/2 my VP2 whey and sip the other 1/2 for about 45 minutes.
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2004/03/01, 01:32 AM
YUP...you got it.
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May the lift be with you.
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2004/03/01, 07:29 AM
Is it safe to assume its more beneficial to take 10g with an insulin spike post workout then 5g without the spike in the am and 5g with the spike post workout?
If this is the case and my workouts are late in the evening, is it ok to take 10g without being able to drink a lot of water because it is nightime? If I drink lots of water during the day, will that be ok to get the water my muscles need and prevent any damage?
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