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2005/07/29, 08:53 PM
Your thoughts?
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2005/07/29, 10:01 PM
I think it's more of a program for an experienced lifter....definitely not for beginners imo....can a beginner make great gains using it? ofcourse....can a beginner make great gains doing X other programs? Yes.....and without putting the body through so much stress....
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2005/07/29, 11:07 PM
I agree with almost everything menace said... Except the part about westside putting the body under extra stress. I have done a modified westside routine for the past 9 months, and have found it EASIER to recover from, even during the wrestling season, than other routines. The speed work is less taxing on the CNS, and since you aren't using heavy weights all the time, it allows your body to recover as well.
I think that as a beginner, there is no need to start with westside. Learn the basic moves, and build a base to lift from. One thing you will find when you first start to weight lift will be that you are in better control of your muscles, ie more muscular coordination. Learn to be comfortable with all the basic lifts, and then move from there.
Also, what are your goals? Do you intend to get into powerlifting???
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/07/29, 11:07 PM
My bad, its actually been closer to 11 months. I have modified it as I see fit for my goals over this period of time.
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2005/07/30, 02:07 AM
supposed to enter my first meet in august if i don`t run into any problems it is just a pushpull looking at 370-400on the bench ,480-510 on the deadlift depends if i peak properly---- doesn`t look like my shirt and suit are going to get here in time for the meet so i`m going to have to do it raw
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2005/07/30, 02:08 AM
wrestler everyone is unique in their lifting experience....i can't train my whole body in a week...much less twice a week...I don't care whether I am lifting peanuts as fast as I can for recovery...I'd be too tired from max days ....active recovery is hard....but I am glad it's been working for you.....
I think as a beginner irondog you need to establish what works and doesn't for your body.....learn to listen to your body's signals....check for how fast you recover...and so forth...because that will foretell the kind of program that will work for you.....
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2005/07/30, 09:31 AM
you know this was theorectical question to see what you thought about this.
I agree with you on westside i think it is for very advanced lifters and i think a beginner would benifit from building his base from heavy compound workouts 2-3days a week
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2005/07/30, 11:46 PM
Yes, I understand that. But I also think that westside is far more easy on the body than other routines. You ar comparing your routine to westside. I was comparing many of the more popular powerlifting routines to westside. There's a big difference there.
I was refering to the routines that train max effort 4x a week or more. I think westside is less stressful in that it is only max effort 2X a week. I think the speed work, in comparison to, extra max effort work, is much less taxing. However, your form of training, would be even less taxing than that (from a recovery standpoint only).
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/07/31, 03:19 AM
The westside principles are can be implemented for anyone at any training status. Everyone can do a max effort day. A beginners max effort will be a lot different then an advanced trainers max effort. Everyone can do a dynamic day. Max effort is your best effort on a given day. I think conjugated periodization (westside) is one of the best systems for beginners. It teaches one how to give their best effort when they train. There is noone that will not benefit from that. I think it is greatly misunderstood by most people. There is an advanced way to implement westside. In fact, that is how they do it at westside barbell. The beginner way is posted on this board. Give it a try for 6 weeks and ask many questions along the way.
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2005/07/31, 03:21 AM
Menace - Westside is supposed to be unique to the individual. It is supposed to be implemented on an individual basis. I could write you a plan off these principles and you would be 50 lbs stronger on all lifts in 3 months.
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2005/07/31, 03:30 AM
This topic always drives me crazy. Westside principles adaptable to anyone trying to get strong and explosive. I have adapted this system with a blend of Olympic and powerlifting movements that has resulted in alot of very strong and explosive athletes. I wish everyone here could spend a week with me to see what it looks like for a beginner through advanced trainee.
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2005/07/31, 01:39 PM
now who is the null guy who keeps stealing my posts?
dog
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2005/07/31, 08:12 PM
1st of all - It's not a boast, its a fact. The principles are good for suited and nonsuited lifters. You asked the question. I gave my opinion. I have worked with many beginners on westside principles and have ZERO injuries. As Louie says, "The ends justify the means." Our injury rates are down with individual sports and we are performing better. I'm sure your profile would help me understand why you are such an expert in this area.
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2005/07/31, 08:13 PM
your best:370-400on the bench ,480-510
What weight class? Looks like linear periodization is doing wonders for your total.
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2005/07/31, 08:17 PM
ok your average beginner starting out in a basement or a gym how is he supposed to know how to apply this type of training it is just about like olympic lifting it is almost impossible to do without a coach.There are a lot of strong powerlifters and atheletes out there who have never used this type of training.Ed coan is the first example that comes to mind.
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No kidding. Again, you asked the question. I answered it based off of my experience. Anytime you want to come to Gainesville and train with me I will gladly roll out the red carpet, let you stay at my house, and in turn add much weight to your totals. Until you fill out your profile I will not respond to any of your posts. You know my experience, now let me see yours.
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2005/07/31, 08:33 PM
Top 3 Dynamic Squat and Dynamic Bench Cycles
By Jim Wendler
For www.EliteFTS.com
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In the spirit of the 4th of July, we are going to focus on explosive (re: dynamic) training. So listed below are the top 3 cycles for the squat and bench. These are not extremely fancy but they do work. So when you start getting confused, go back to the basics. Your strength will thank you. The following are taken from the Dynamic Bench Press Manual and the Dynamic Squat Manual.
Dynamic Squat Cycles
Basic Straight Weight Cycle
Application: This cycle is for the beginner who has average squat form and needs to work on strength. This was what was used for years at Westside Barbell. This is still occasionally used so don’t be afraid to throw this in if you are an advanced squatter.
Training Cycle:
Week 1 – 50% for 12 sets 2 reps
Week 2 – 55% for 10 sets 2 reps
Week 3 – 60% for 8 sets 2 reps
Training percent is based on current one rep max with the free squat with equipment.
These percents are used as guidelines. The more advanced the lifters the lighter the percent needed. If you are a raw lifter or do not use power lifting gear then a minimum of 10% should be added to the listed percents.
All sets should be performed with the use of a parallel box.
You should rest no more than 45 to 60 seconds between sets
Basic Chain Cycle
Application: This is a very good cycle for the advanced lifter who has good squat skill and form. The chains will help to develop a greater level of squat stability as well as increasing the explosion out of the bottom of the squat. This would be a very good off season strength cycle for the advanced.
Training Cycle:
Week 1 – 55% for 8 sets 2 reps
Week 2 – 58% for 8 sets 2 reps
Week 3- 60% for 8 sets 2 reps
Suggested Chain:
Squat Max: 200-400 Pounds – 60 total pounds of chains
Squat Max: 400-500 Pounds – 80 total pounds of chains
Squat Max: 500-600 Pounds – 100 total pounds of chains
Squat Max: 600-800 Pounds – 120 total pounds of chains
Squat Max: 800-950 Pounds – 160 total pounds of chains
Chains should be set up so 2-4 chain links are all the ground at all time. The chain set up should be the same as sold by EliteFTS.com. There should be a feeder chain to adjust the chain length.
Training percent is based on current one rep max with the free squat with equipment.
These percents are used as guidelines. The more advanced the lifters the lighter the percent needed. If you are a raw lifter or do not use power lifting gear then a minimum of 10% should be added to the listed percents.
All sets should be performed with the use on a parallel box.
If you feel good after your sets, work up to a heavy double. This should not be done every week but should be completed at least once through the cycle.
You should rest no more than 45 to 60 seconds between sets
Band Training Cycle
Application: This is a very good strength cycle for the intermediate - advanced lifter who has good squat skill and form. The bands will help to develop a greater level of squat stability as well as increasing the explosion out of the bottom of the squat. This would be a very good off season and strength building squat phase for the intermediate – advanced strength athlete.
Training Cycle:
Week 1 – 47% for 8 sets 2 reps
Week 2 – 51% for 8 sets 2 reps
Week 3- 53% for 8 sets 2 reps
Suggested Band:
Squat Max: 300-500 Pounds – Light Band
Squat Max: 500-700 Pounds – Average Band
Squat Max: 700-1000 Pounds – Strong Band
Squat Max: 1000 -1200 Pounds – Strong and Light Band
* Listed are bands per side.
Notes:
Bands should be set up so there is tension at the bottom of the lift. To accomplish this at Westside we use a choke loop at the bottom of the mono lift with an attached 2x4 to spread the choke out wider. For more ideas on this see the article accommodating resistance in the articles section at our web site www.elitefts.com.
Training percent is based on current one rep max with the free squat with equipment.
These percents are used as guidelines. The more advanced the lifters the lighter the percent needed. If you are a raw lifter or do not use power lifting gear then a minimum of 10% should be added to the listed percents.
All sets should be performed with the use on a parallel box.
If you feel good after your sets, work up to a heavy double. This should not be done every week but should be completed at least once through the cycle.
You should rest no more than 45 to 60 seconds between sets
Dynamic Bench Training
Straight Weight Cycle
Application: This cycle is intended for those who have more than one year of training under there belt but still feel they need to add more muscle mass. This cycle is designed to harness the benefits of dynamic training while still developing the raw strength many notice lifters are still lacking.
Training Cycle:
Week 1 – 50% for 8 sets 3 reps followed by 2 sets 5 reps with 60% (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
Week 2 – 55% for 8 sets 3 reps followed by 2 sets 5 reps with 65% (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
Week 3 – 60% for 8 sets 3 reps followed by 2 sets 5 reps with 70% (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
All percentages are based on your raw bench press max.
Chain Cycle
Application: This cycle is intended for the beginning trainee who has been through a few of the beginner straight weight cycles and is ready to add chains into the training cycle. Beginner may still have some technical issue with the bench press and is looking for something new to try out that will help them bring their dynamic strength to the next level.
Training Cycle:
Week 1 – 60% for 8 sets 3 reps (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
Week 2 – 60% for 8 sets 3 reps (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
Week 3 – 60% for 8 sets 3 reps (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
* On those days you feel good and the weight feel easy then add 2 sets of 5 reps at the end of the 8 dynamic speed sets with a weight ranging from 10-20% higher then weight used for the dynamic sets.
Suggested Chain (based on max bench press) (chain weight is for both side combined)
100-200 Pounds – 20 pounds
201-300 Pounds – 40 pounds
301-400 Pounds – 60 pounds
401-500 Pounds – 80 pounds
501-600 Pounds – 100 pounds
601-700 Pounds – 120 pounds
800 Plus Pounds – 140 pounds
Chains should be set up with the use of a support chain with main weight chain running through the support chain with ½ of the main chain weight resting on the floor when the barbell in is the racked position.
Band Cycle
Application: Bands are not recommended for beginners. This is because the beginner has not yet developed the muscular and technical base needed for band training. If the trainee feels they do have a good technical base and are ready for bands then the follow cycle is for them. If trainee does not feel they are ready it is best to stick with straight weight and chain cycles until they are ready.
Training Cycle:
Week 1 – 50% for 8 sets 3 reps (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
Week 2 – 50% for 8 sets 3 reps (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
Week 3 – 50% for 8 sets 3 reps (use three different grips: close, medium and wide)
* On those days you feel good and the weight feel easy then add 2 sets of 5 reps at the end of the 8 dynamic speed sets with a weight ranging from 10-20% higher then weight used for the dynamic sets.
Suggested Band Tensions (based on max bench press)
100-200 Pounds – Bands not recommended
201-300 Pounds – 30-40 pounds of band tension at the top of the lift
301-400 Pounds – 40-50 pounds of band tension at the top of the lift
401-500 Pounds – 70 - 80 pounds of band tension at the top of the lift
501-600 Pounds – 70 - 80 pounds of band tension at the top of the lift
601-700 Pounds – 100-120 pounds of band tension at the top of the lift
800 Plus Pounds – 140-160 pounds of band tension at the top of the lift
* Bands should be set up so there is always tension at the bottom of the lift. The recommended band tension is based on the total band tension at the top of the bench press.
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2005/07/31, 08:33 PM
i have filled out the profile it didn`t take. in a nutshell
i am 46years old drugfree lifter 198 class this will be my first meet never had time before raising my family those # are raw .Haven`t tried powerlifting gear yet ordered it and it hasn`t arrived.I`m sorry if those numbers aren`t good enough for you.
I guess i can`t have an opinion unless it agrees with yours.This is about beginner training and not what you and i are doing.So if you want to act superiour so be it just stating some observations.
You said i have seen your credentials please share them with me.I am new here.
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2005/07/31, 08:33 PM
Jim Wendler is a smart dude. He squats a 1000lbs and yet can write a cycle for a beginner...
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2005/07/31, 08:37 PM
Dude, you're the guy that came on here blasting other people. I am taking the time to tell you that it works for beginners. There are plenty of other styles that work too. You fired me up so I fired back. If you can't take it don't start it.
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2005/07/31, 08:40 PM
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Quoting from null:
ok how does a beginner know what is weak points are.Shouldn`t he spend a certian amount of time learning the excercises he is doing before he can have a max effort day.plus aren`t there priniciples aimed at a suited lifter not a raw lifter.
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Westside is supposed to be unique to the individual. It is supposed to be implemented on an individual basis.___________________________________________________________
ok your average beginner starting out in a basement or a gym how is he supposed to know how to apply this type of training it is just about like olympic lifting it is almost impossible to do without a coach.There are a lot of strong powerlifters and atheletes out there who have never used this type of training.Ed coan is the first example that comes to mind.
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This whole post is the wrong way to come at me. I am wide open for debate. Just don't try to make me look stupid when I know what I am doing. I get beginners every new school year and take them from scratch to elite level strength athletes in the weight room, while staying injury free. I have been here 3 years and have ZERO weight room injuries. You came off like westside principles injure people when implemented correctly. I countered your opinion because I know how good they are for any given lifter.
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2005/07/31, 08:41 PM
Check my profile - the button is VIEW PROFILE underneath my posts.
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2005/07/31, 08:45 PM
we aren`t arguing if they can write a cycle for a beginner it is like trying to learn how to us a bench shirt you need someone to help you the first time to learn how to use it.
all i am saying is unless you have a coach or a trainer westside isn`t the best choice for a beginner
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2005/07/31, 08:49 PM
You never clarified that in your original post. The post title was westside for beginners. The post was - Any thoughts? There are plenty of articles and templates here along with the EFS and westside barbell websites that if a beginner was truly interested in this style they could do it. Hopefully they would go find some good training partners so they don't get stuck on a max effort day. I agree with you on that point. But I think it is a great system for beginners if it is implemented properly.
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2005/07/31, 08:50 PM
ok i didn`t blast you first of all just stating some observations
second of all you are coaching these atheletes could you imagine trying to do this by yourself as your first training program just wouldn`t work
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2005/07/31, 08:53 PM
you just said the key words if implemented properly.Isn`t better just to keep it simple unless they have a coach
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2005/07/31, 08:54 PM
It does work. I know people who have done it.
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2005/07/31, 08:56 PM
It is simple. Look at the templates. People who are interested in training can research the template and find exercises appropriate to their training needs. Obviously they have to follow basic weight room safety guidelines in doing so but it can be done - with success.
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2005/07/31, 09:00 PM
there is no arguing if it works or not
linnaer periodaztion works
westside works
metal miltia works
joe blows training works
a lot of it depends on your personality on which one you chose to pursue.or like.
oh by the way those are some good numbers.
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2005/07/31, 09:05 PM
i respect anybody who is passionate about what they do.even if i disagree with them LOL
good luck on pursuing your goals
i have enjoyed our conversation and i never meant to try to make you look stupid
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2005/07/31, 09:07 PM
It is simple. Look at the templates. People who are interested in training can research the template and find exercises appropriate to their training needs. Obviously they have to follow basic weight room safety guidelines in doing so but it can be done - with success.
simple to me and you but to a newbie???
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2005/07/31, 11:07 PM
I agree about the 50 lbs in 3 months. Westside allowed me to put on 45 lbs to 2 of my lifts (squat and dead) and 35 lbs to my bench in 6 months. Now before you say the math doesn't add up, this was during the wrestling season through 11 practices a week and weight cutting. I think that is nothing sort of amazing, especially seeing how many people lose strength during the season.
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2005/08/03, 10:52 PM
Gator how well do you think you'd train people who are not as naturally athletic. What would you do differently if anything. I imagine training college athletes you get people who are beginners to weightlifting but have a lot more potential.
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2005/08/04, 11:15 AM
Yes, but everyone that gets to gatormades level has experiance with regular people. You don't start out as a S&C coach at a university after recieving certification. Training beginners if often much easier than finding a workout that will be effective for an elite level athlete.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/08/04, 03:34 PM
I meant how well would they do in comparison, or what would he train differently. I figured since he'd probably trained all levels of athletes he'd be able to compare.
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2005/08/05, 11:11 AM
I have trained people in age range from 10 to 103 and ability level from beginner to elite. Beginners for the most part make the biggest gains. There is more room for improvement. You don't have to switch their workouts up as much as an elite level trained athlete. Beginners might use the same plan for 3-6 weeks. 3 being the norm and 6 being the extreme. Elite level are more like 1-3 weeks on a given plan. Most falling at 2 weeks. I change my own plan every week these days. I have been training 18 years now. I will admit that I get more out of genetically gifted people than regular folk but then who wouldn't? That is why they are here at Florida. If you look at our website, www.gatorzone.com, and check out our 2004 Olympians you will be shocked how many we had. We are an elite level athletics program and we get the best athletes around the country and in some cases the world. So, yes they are easy to get gains out of but designing the programs are very challenging. A ton of consideration goes into their plans. I start beginners on the basics. Good question.
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2005/08/05, 01:26 PM
Thanks for the answer.
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2007/09/07, 03:17 PM
I am a beginner at the gym want to lose weight and I am a female. I want to know how can you tell how much weight to put on to start with? I dont want to hurt myself
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2007/09/07, 03:29 PM
This defiantly the wrong place for this post. However, I answered someone else with same question over in the Beginners forum. I believe the topic is labeled Starting Weight.
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