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2005/05/10, 10:08 PM
hey yall, i have to improve my bench by around 75lbs and improve my strength everywhere else in time for football, which is a little over 2 months away. what is the best football program that will produce the most gains? please help me!
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2005/05/10, 10:27 PM
75 lbs in 2 months... thats about 38 pounds per month. Which is almost 10 pounds a week. You should have started lifting last month... As for the best program, your going to hate my answer even more than the last one... There is no best program, or a program that will produce the most gains. It depends on many factors, such as your goals, experiance, and reactions to training. Maybe you should ask your coach...
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2005/05/11, 01:34 PM
is your coach pushing for you to increase on your bench press and if so ask him how that type of strength carries over to the football field. the lying flat barbell bench press is one of the most useless exercises for athletes since it trains neither your neuromuscular system nor the type of strength that is necessary for a sport like football (or most others for that matter). if you were a bodybuilder or maybe even some type of grapler there is definately some validity to using this exercise.
unfortunately since the nfl combine still use this as a test of "strength" almost all highschool and colleges are going to follow suit. so don't let my previous statements lead you to believe that i look down on anyone for advocating this for football players.
the best type of program is one that is specifically desinged for you by a competent professional that takes more than what is trendy into account when prescribing a program for you. with only two months till your season, it will be impossible to build much more than a solid strength foundation for this season and with proper planning, you should be able to maintain as much of that strength throughout the season.
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2005/05/11, 02:14 PM
iight, thanks alot yall, well wat are some typically good football routines. and wat is yalls opinion on the Bigger Faster Stronger (BFS) program?
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2005/05/11, 02:52 PM
It is a fantastic program, my coaches in highschool had are whole team on that. I'm surprised they dont have you on that. Use that one if you can, or do the freetrainers 12 week mass gain program that works great too. The bench press is an important exercise for strength in football, but even more important is the squat, hang clean, clean, deadlift, and plyometric exercises.
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2005/05/11, 06:13 PM
gowar,
in what way does the strength carry over in a pushing movement that is performed with a long bar while lying on your back to any pushing movement while standing? besides PURE general strength that can be addressed and trained with better methods.
the other problem with most of these other exercises in the ways that they are taught is that they are too plane biased...by that i mean that they are all performed in the same plane of motion. the saggital plane, which goes from front to back, is the plane that is dominant in all of these exercises. none of them address the transverse which is almost always the more dominant plane in sports.
now i'm not saying that there is no benefits from performing these exercises (far from it actually), i'm just trying to open some eyes to other methods of training. if anyone's read any of my other posts, they know i'm all about controversy, just as long as it initiates debate.
i'm not satisfied with the level of strength and conditioning in this country. sure athletes are pushing the limits of the human body, but if they are injured in the process, then where is the benefit? any thoughts on this?
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2005/05/11, 10:37 PM
BFS: our football team does it, and they were 2nd in the state this year after not making it out of the county last year. I did it, and it was a good program, but not what I was looking for. It did teach me the basic lifts well and built a base to work off of. I prefer split workouts though and needed a more in depth workout for grappling.
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2005/05/11, 10:44 PM
Nellyboy: for the sake of debate, as I am not a football player, I am only seeking to carry on the debate, I think that the bench press strengthens the muscles that are used in pushing, say stiff-arming an opponent, and as a result, they are functional, even if they do not mimic the movements of a football player. While I think a better movement would be the dumbbell press, as the weight can not be compensated by one arm if theres more force on the other, such as a football player's uneven weight, and would better adapt a football player for such a movement. Now, if you understood that, I would also like to point out the invalidity of a "sport specific motion". The ideal lift for football would be one in which the athlete explodes out of a stance, extends the hip joints backwards to propel himself forward, dropped the shoulders forward to get underneath the weight, and then used the arms to push the weight out of the way and follow through with the body. I would call that football practice. While I understand the validity in a sport specific movement, I feel it is overemphasized, as nothing can ever be perfectly calculated on the playing field. One must train for the unexpected.
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2005/05/12, 05:52 PM
============
Quoting from nellyboy:
gowar,
in what way does the strength carry over in a pushing movement that is performed with a long bar while lying on your back to any pushing movement while standing? besides PURE general strength that can be addressed and trained with better methods.
the other problem with most of these other exercises in the ways that they are taught is that they are too plane biased...by that i mean that they are all performed in the same plane of motion. the saggital plane, which goes from front to back, is the plane that is dominant in all of these exercises. none of them address the transverse which is almost always the more dominant plane in sports.
now i'm not saying that there is no benefits from performing these exercises (far from it actually), i'm just trying to open some eyes to other methods of training. if anyone's read any of my other posts, they know i'm all about controversy, just as long as it initiates debate.
i'm not satisfied with the level of strength and conditioning in this country. sure athletes are pushing the limits of the human body, but if they are injured in the process, then where is the benefit? any thoughts on this?
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The Bench press develops great upper body strength that is important for football and most sports. There is a point when "functional" training hits the wall and you have just found it. Benching in and of itself does not look practical because you are laying on a bench. But, where else can you overload the upper body musculature in that manner. The strength gained from benching will most definitely transfer over to the field of play as long as it the other parts of the human body have also been properly developed.
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2005/05/12, 05:56 PM
I use benching variations to develop the upper body strength of all of the athletes I work with. Volleyball players have to be strong up top and at the trunk so when they block someone at the net they can win the joust. This topic lights me up every time I see it because people miss the point everytime. Not everything we do in the weight room can be sport specific. A base must always be built first. Then every off-season that base must be taken to the next level for a given athlete. Benching, squatting, & triple extension movements must always be part of a football program. I cannot stress enough how important great upper body and great trunk and lower body strength are to any athlete. ERRRR!!!!:angry:
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2005/05/12, 06:00 PM
If proper technique and progression are followed then injuries can be eliminated. In my 5 years as a college professional, 7 years overall, I have yet to have an athlete experience a weight room relate injury. The nagging injuries most athletes experience have been reduced in the sports I work with and the common denominator in all my programs are cleans, bench variations, and box squats. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat but don't ever forget to include the meat and potatoes.
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2005/05/12, 08:39 PM
i will only respond to gatormade since wrestlers post is anecdotal and does not make any clear points for debate.
what i'm talking about here is neuromuscular training and not bodybuilding. the flat barbell bench press is an isolation technique that is MORE suited for bodybuilders...not athletes. i'm not saying that there is absolutely no place for it in athletics...but why not try a pushing motion from a standing or kneeling position...or at the very least with dumbbells on the stability ball? this way ensures that you're training your neuromuscular system. as for injuries...i wasn't talking about injuries IN the gym, i was reffering to in the playing field or 5 to 10 years down the road.
i'll get more into this in a bit...
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2005/05/12, 10:55 PM
and what about my posts is anecdotal? is there something you dont understand? And gator already answered your question as to trying a pushing motion from standing, you can't overload your upper body the same way as you can with your back on a bench. If you are saying that bench pressing is not functional to training, then you are disagreeing with every coach i've ever had, and that a gold medalist in the olympics, 1 silver in olympics and world champion, 4 national finalists in junior nationals, and my current powerlifting coach that was a 3 time ncaa all-american. every program ive ever recieved from them has included bench as one of if not the main upper body movement. is there a reason for this? yes, it works.
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The best feeling in the world is the feeling you get after a tough set of squats after you step back from the power rack and throw up all over the floor.
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2005/05/13, 05:35 PM
you made my point with that post. i'm not interested in what so and so's coach teaches since most of it is based on lay media, reguratated information, outdated information and/or information that is based on studies in which the paramaters were either incorrect, biased or payed for.
i've said this a thousand times and i'll say it again...there are many pathways to the top of the mountain, yet some are safer and more efficient than others.
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2005/05/13, 05:41 PM
as for the overloading while in the standing position, yes you both are correct that you cannot load AS MUCH, but what i'm interested in is whether or not it is necessary. if you have a large amount of maximum strength or power in the push pattern while lying down, yet your core cannot effectively stabilize this energy during motion, then what happens to the energy?
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2005/05/16, 01:04 PM
Benching is a multi joint exercise that strengthens the upper body. It is not an isolation technique. Isolation refers to single joint movements. You can overload the bench which inturn activates the nervous system. Not everything in the weight room needs to mimic sport performance. Obviously your way is more safe and efficient since you have coached Olympians and professional athletes to the elite level... The ends justify the means. Benching and its variations are important exercises for most athletes. And what made you think I don't train athletes with a physioball DB bench press. Here is an example of what I do:
Speed Bench
50% x 3 reps x 12 sets; 30-45 sec TBS
DB PB Bench x 5 x 4 superset with a Pull-up x 5 x 4
Standing Military Press x 10 x 3 superset with a seated row x 10 x 3
Rotator cuff work and abs to finish - takes 30-40 minutes.
I also train them with Olympic lifts, squats, and many other multijoint varitions. It is ok to let an athlete sit down or lay down to train. It is beneficial too. I think too many 'functional' exercises done standing can tax their backs too much. I believe a blend between the two is optimal.
Oh, and are you really questioning the efficiency and safety of a benching? I know what works for my athletes through my own experience and research. I read just about everything there is to read about training and I am convinced benching is important. I know for a fact that benching strength transfers into real life movements if your trunk and legs are strong. I know it because I have felt and seen it.
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2005/05/16, 01:09 PM
Strengthen your trunk to handle the pressing motion. I have already said that you have to have a strong trunk to be able to transfer that lying down power to real life situations. If you take a defensive lineman who weighs 50 lbs less than an offensive lineman and don't develop great upper body strength in him then he will get pushed around all day regardless of his leg and trunks strength. Working with a heavy weight on bench recruits shoulder stabilizers as well as the pressing related muscles. As long as the technique is still good then benching is great for the shoulder joint. I agree too much benching can lead to a shoulder injury. Not enough pulling is bad too. I try to usually set up so my athletes get 2 pulls to every push in a week of training.
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2005/05/16, 04:54 PM
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Quoting from nellyboy:
you made my point with that post. i'm not interested in what so and so's coach teaches since most of it is based on lay media, reguratated information, outdated information and/or information that is based on studies in which the paramaters were either incorrect, biased or payed for.
i've said this a thousand times and i'll say it again...there are many pathways to the top of the mountain, yet some are safer and more efficient than others.
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Here's a tip, try not to reguratate all of Paul Chek's ideas as your own and get out and train some champions. Before this goes any further, I would really like a list of people you have helped get to the elite level. THE ends justify the means (unless they were illegal). Paul Chek has some good ideas but I get the feeling you really don't understand how to develop maximal force production in an athlete and still keep them healthy. It is possible. The 2 Olympic gold medalist swimmers I worked with last summer seemed to enjoy the bench pressing movements we do. So do the 3 Olympic throwers I trained. And the one hurlder I worked with liked it too. HMMM.... Oh, the 12 guys I helped develop that are in the NFL and play liked bench press. They also like squats and cleans. GO figure. But, what do real world examples really mean. Reality can't really be used for evidence that something works, can it? I am done with this topic.
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2005/05/16, 07:22 PM
once again...i said that the bench press has applications, not that it is entirely worthless. if you were to actually read and understand what i'm trying to convey in the post, you would realize that i'm saying basically what you are only in a different way so as to not only spark debate, but also to make people think outside of tradition...for the sake of tradition.
and why the animosity? you take the things i debate with you about far too personally. you also seem to be pretty self-absorbed with the fact that you've trained athletes that are already at an elite level when they are presented to you. try working with kids and adult athletes that've been trained by meat heads or have no training background at all. the information that you present to your athletes is no better than the information that i have LEARNED (just as you have). paul chek is just one of the sources that i've LEARNED from, much of the other information that i talk about is from countless others.
don't take any of this personally, this is FRIENDLY debate.
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2005/05/17, 07:41 AM
I will take post personally when you post the way you post. You basically said, in so many words, that real world experience doesn't matter.
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you made my point with that post. i'm not interested in what so and so's coach teaches since most of it is based on lay media, reguratated information, outdated information and/or information that is based on studies in which the paramaters were either incorrect, biased or payed for.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have worked with athletes who have been trained by meatheads. And, trust me, I am not self absorbed. I just used my experience as a way to get my point across. And no way are you trying to say the same thing I am in a different way. You told the person who started this post," the lying flat barbell bench press is one of the most useless exercises for athletes since it trains neither your neuromuscular system nor the type of strength that is necessary for a sport like football (or most others for that matter). if you were a bodybuilder or maybe even some type of grapler there is definately some validity to using this exercise." This is far from what I am saying. Yeah, I will take this personally because of the way you presented it.
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2005/05/17, 07:45 AM
"i'm not satisfied with the level of strength and conditioning in this country. sure athletes are pushing the limits of the human body, but if they are injured in the process, then where is the benefit? any thoughts on this?"
I also like to know what you have done in our field to make such an informed opinion. I agree that we need to get better, but I don't think you have seen the entire scope of what people are doing with their athletes. There are more good S&C coaches than there are bad ones.
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2005/05/17, 07:53 AM
Plus, you bashed (maybe without intention) wrestlers coach. Be careful how you present your self when debating. Reading your post got me more hot than willing to debate because you come off like you have all the answers. I am more than willing to debate a topic with you on anything strength & conditioning I just want you to consider the way you present what you are saying.
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2005/05/17, 07:55 AM
Thank you Gator for coming back to this board! Nelly, if you had read anything that real powerlifters do you would know that heavy bench is a huge compund exercise that is a huge stimulator if the CNS and done right is a great exercise. Now I have not trained anyone of note except my self. I know that since I have gone to a more powerlifting style (bench deadlift and squat) routine I have got faster more explosive, and a hell of a lot stronger. I think you need to chill out a little since most if not all your stuff does not really say a thing....
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/05/17, 08:19 AM
What a great post...welcome back gator...this has been enlightening...
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2005/05/17, 08:22 AM
Gator do you believe that bench press is the best upper body exercise? what are your personal favorites for upper body training?
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2005/05/17, 10:48 AM
My top 5:
1. Close grip bench
2. Pull-ups
3. Military press
4. B.O.R.
5. Any form of DB Benching
I also enjoy floor press (DB or barbell). I only mention these here but there are alot more that I like too. I'm just giving you my favorite and these are in no order of importance.
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2005/05/17, 04:01 PM
A lot of the athletes we get here are not developed. We develop a lot of our athletes. Again, do not make assumptions of situations you know nothing about. They are very talented. I will give you that, but I spend most of my time developing the talent we have. That is what a good strength coach does. We (meaning sport coach, nutritionist, strength coach, & athletic trainer) take a talented athlete and get them to the next level. Nelly, you need to spend some time with me down here as an intern. This is an open ended invitation to come watch the Gators train. Then you can make better informed decision on what really happens in our world.
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2005/05/17, 05:54 PM
Go Gators!!!
sorry..slOcala native in the house
this is a great thread
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2005/05/17, 07:13 PM
To reply to the original post by Benpeters8 (it may be far too late by now but...), BFS (Bigger, Faster, Stronger) is an excellent workout for any athlete, and you will get huge gains from it. You should check it out.
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I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious.
--Vince Lombardi
"Decide what you want, decide what you are willing to exchange for it. Establish your priorities and go to work." H. L. Hunt
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2005/05/17, 09:40 PM
Gator I have been reading quite a bit of negative information from some strength athletes on DIPS in terms of how it messed up shoulders....have you used it with any success? I used it for myself and thought it was a good exercise but I don't want to set myself up for failure.
Also how does push&press compare to military presses?
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2005/05/18, 07:26 AM
When I do dips I never let my shoulder go deeper than level with my elbow. I think the problem with dips comes in when people get too deep. I love dips. If they do bother your shoulder then try something different. A push press is basically a cheating military press. It bridges the gap between a military press and a power jerk. To do a push press all you do is dip 4-6 inches at the knee drive hard and then use the momentum to finish the press.
BFS is a good plan.
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2005/05/18, 07:27 AM
BFS was just getting popular when I was in high school. I used it my sophmore year and had very nice results.
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2005/05/18, 08:54 AM
So if you could use just 1 upper body compound exercise...what would it be? flat bench? or soemthing else?
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2005/05/18, 10:10 AM
I would never use just one. If I had to because someone held a gun to my head then I would go with close grip bench. I like to use a lot of variety when I train. I might perform 6-9 weeks of regular bench during the entire year. I like to develop my bench with varitations like:
floor press - barbell or DB close grip, moderate grip, regular grip
Close grip bench w/barbell or DB
Decline bench - various grips
Speed bench - various grips
Physioball DB Bench
Physioball Incline Bench
Incline bench - various grips
Pin press - various grips and heights
Board press- various grips and heights
What I am saying is it is better to vary what you do. This keeps you fresh physically and mentally. Typically I change my stuff up every 1-3 weeks.
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2005/05/18, 12:15 PM
This is a bit off topic....but do you think bands/chains were the main reason for why Gene Reychlek and Scott Mendelson(unofficially so far at his gym, i saw the video) broke the 1000 mark for bench?
Also if you saw the Gene's 1005 lift....do you think it should have passed ? (this has been discussed by others but I just wanted to know your opinion on this issue)
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2005/05/19, 03:52 PM
I think the main reason they got to where they are at is hard work, dedication, and a high pain tolerance. I am dead serious about this. Chains and bands help but getting stronger is all about the effort put forth each and every time you train. Obviously the smarter you train with that hard work the more you can achieve but in my mind the answer is the big three mentioned previously.
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2005/05/22, 07:13 AM
hi guys I just stumbled across your board and I thought I'd sign up and give you my beliefs based on a bunch of articles, books and videos I've soaked up over the years.
I heard an interesting fact that I believe came from Paul Chek quoting Charles Poliquin or Kim Goss when training elite gymnists. He found that the average 170lbs gymnist who had never bench pressed before could on average push 300-350lbs. The basically just added weights until they did a 1RM. Thats alot of weight for a first attempt.
If this is the case then I would say that the only real used for bench press in a football player is to pack on some muscle.
To take it to the other extreme you can build a guys strength on a machine bench press or smith machine then move him onto a bench press with bars or bells and he's weak as piss.
So really your only going to be able to use your bench strenght to the point that your core can support it. Possibly gained from doing pushups. To me the standing cable press which integrates the entire body will have much more benefit to the football player.
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2005/05/22, 07:16 AM
What are you talking about? Standing cabel press? I am sure that all the NFL teams as well as colleges will be interested in hearing that. It is a simple plain fact that the bench improves pusing strength. Been used for that for the last 1000 years or so I guess. And for that matter how in the world do you do a staqnding cabel press? Been lifting for over 10 years never seen one done.
Or are you just posting this drivel to start a fight?:angry:
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/05/22, 07:25 AM
So what your saying is you do things because everyone else does them. The reason it's so over used is because all the coaches are old players who never learnt anything else.
I wasn't trying to pick a fight, you guys were already discussing this. I added in my slant. Did any of it make sense?
You do a standing cable press with an adjustable cable cross over. 1 arm or 2 depending on your equipment. Defenitly a challenging exercise.
Now try and relax.:love:
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2005/05/22, 10:01 AM
However a cable is a "controlled" weight...... unless th epully is on a hinge the weight stays in the same place.....its goes up and down up and down. You loose alot of the bodies stablization power by doing this since its "fixed" A bench press goes up and down, but one said can go up faster, YOU have to keep it in that "Line" of movement. Its just you and gravity.
My college stength room, has a few hammer strwength machines, for lats.......some push press machines by hammer strength.......and 12 powerracks.....12 platforms.....12 benchs that can be angled flat to 90 degress. with 5- 175lb dbs.......NO cable stations.
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" The only true eye, is your minds eye"- plato
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2005/05/22, 02:52 PM
Also have you ever seen gynmasts? Do you know why they are strong? They can hold their body weight up with one arm.....do one arm pull ups.... do standing tucks , fulls layouts.....double layouts, doubel tucks, handsprings......vaults, trampolining........gymnasts are master of "explosion" with their body. So of coarse they are gonna be natually stronger......whats that have to do with cables?
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" The only true eye, is your minds eye"- plato
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2005/05/22, 09:04 PM
My problem is that you say using a "Standing cabel press" is way better for a foootball player to build pressing strength. I say you are wrong and that all serious strength atheletes I know do not use cables at all for building wxplosive power. That is what this post is about.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/05/22, 10:52 PM
Gymnasts do their own version of a bench press, and its called a planche (sp?) pushup. See if you can find a pic and tell me its not extreme. There was a great article on T-mag a while ago about it. Ill try to find it and post.
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2005/05/22, 10:58 PM
y friend is a high level one.........he can do the iron cross ont he rings.......and can do pushups without his feet touching the floor....only his hands.....amazing body control.
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" The only true eye, is your minds eye"- plato
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2005/05/22, 11:08 PM
yeah, thats what i meant by a planche pushup. its sick. theres pictures on the dragondoor website, and even a progression to get there. Anyways, heres the link to the article.
http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=772EA0B5A3A725C17C3422F14F1AF0FC.hydra?id=486975
it disgusts me the degree of balance and muscular coordination that must take.
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2005/05/23, 03:39 AM
Gator how do clap push ups...(on floor or using medicine ball) compare to weight exercises for developing upper body strength?
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2005/05/23, 07:52 AM
null is me. Something went wrong
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2005/05/23, 07:53 AM
Yup see tons of strenght athelets doing heavy bench on swiss balls.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2005/05/23, 07:53 AM
Message deleted by moderator due to unsuitable content for this board.
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2005/05/23, 07:59 AM
I guess DOA didn't read this whole thread... I don't care if you did. Benching is important for upperbody strength. I played college football. It is a physically demanding sport. I can say the things that made me better at football that happened in the weight room were bench presses, squats, lots of trunk work, and triple extension type movements.
You're saying that the cable press develope your "core" along with the press but those areas of the body can be worked better with different exercises. For example, the best way to develop the press is with the bench. One of the best ways to develop the trunk is with heavy weighted sit-ups. You cannot overload the musculature in those areas as well with the standing press. It is a nice supplemental exercise but should never be a priority lift done first in a workout.
From DOA,"So what your saying is you do things because everyone else does them. The reason it's so over used is because all the coaches are old players who never learnt anything else."
This comment is disrespectful. Players who coach are not all dumb meatheads. You assume too much. Some coaches who played have some serious insight on how to train athletes in their sport. Every sport I train I have gone out and practiced for several months to better understand what those athletes need. If you know what to do with the information obtained from the experience of playing or practicing then you will be better than the person who has never played or even practiced the skill. Nobody is saying do what everyone else does. But, in the same respect why wouldn't you try to do the best things with your athletes. There are some old school exercises that I would never cut from a training plan and I am as cutting edge and willing to try new stuff as you will find in this business. Would you give up chicken because everyone else who competes in their given sport eats chicken? I will say that I respect all of the people on this forum. This topic started off with another member telling a kid that benching is wrong and that it is useless. No need for that.
I like clap push-ups. I also think push-ups of any type done properly are great for developing upper body strength. In high school, my wrestling coach used to have us partner up and do push-ups to failure with our teammate sitting on our shoulder blades.
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