Group: Beginners to Exercise

Created: 2012/01/01, Members: 970, Messages: 18927

Share and offer advice to beginners to the fitness world!

Join group

How important is it to train legs?

1 2 of 2 pages resultset_next resultset_last
Sidume
Sidume
Posts: 70
Joined: 2004/01/28
United States
2004/04/26, 11:25 PM
I realize that Squats are great, not only for training legs, but for getting strength gains overall because of the hormonal triggers, but to what degree and how important is it? I understand a lot of guys complain about "chicken legs," but how much stress should be put in leg training when you are looking to lose weight and have treetrunks? :surprised:

Thanks!
bb1fit
bb1fit
Posts: 11,105
Joined: 2001/06/30
United States
2004/04/26, 11:46 PM
Think of legs as they are, your foudation. Think of a tree, the smaller the trunk, the easier it comes down. Good leg workout will increase your mass in all areas.

--------------
If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything....

bb1fit@freetrainers.com
neiltilley
neiltilley
Posts: 325
Joined: 2003/03/09
United Kingdom
2004/04/27, 04:57 AM
Very important. My gym is a freak show of young lads who look good from the waist up- big shoulders on matchstick legs. It's training to impress the girls innit? But a small leg and butt aint sexy if it don't match the top half.

I see guys benching out their 3/4 sets of 220 pound plus and then playing on the leg curl with 80's and 90's as they are learning from their mistake a couple of years back. And they've got a couple of years to go to put the balance back.
Symmetry gets the girl everytime! okay sometimes.
7707mutt
7707mutt
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 2002/06/18
United States
2004/04/27, 07:43 AM
I read somewhere that if you ain't training legs then you are just wasteing your time. I stand by that......regardless of your goals leg training is key to success in the long term.

--------------
LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!

7707mutt@freetrainers.com
Sidume
Sidume
Posts: 70
Joined: 2004/01/28
United States
2004/04/27, 03:01 PM
Thanks for the input, but I don't _want_ to add mass. I have decent legs - they're probably my best feature from an athletic viewpoint. But how much focus should they get if I want to concentrate on upper strength and LOSE some mass?
Shane123
Shane123
Posts: 148
Joined: 2003/11/27
United States
2004/04/27, 09:31 PM
Overrated. But worth training if only to train the glutes.
rev8ball
rev8ball
Posts: 3,081
Joined: 2001/12/27
United States
2004/04/27, 11:53 PM
Training legs is over rated???? :surprised:

--------------
Michael

Trample the weak; hurdle the dead!
Chaos, Panic, Disorder.... Yes, my work here is done!

rev8ball@freetrainers.com
DanielJLove
DanielJLove
Posts: 320
Joined: 2004/03/30
United States
2004/04/28, 02:30 AM
I would say that even if you don't want to gain mass it is still important to train the legs. It maintains thier physique and burns a lot of calories. Just do higher reps with light wieght and don't increase so much from week to week. When your top half catches up you may change your mind and then your legs won't be shocked by doing exercises for the first time.

As for overrated, I can't think of a muscle group that is more fun or thrilling to work. Wouldn't want to give up my leg workout.

Daniel
Hellscream
Hellscream
Posts: 272
Joined: 2004/02/25
United Kingdom
2004/04/28, 11:14 AM
leg workouts really takes you out though, probably why alot of people avoid it.
2004/04/28, 11:25 AM
I had shoulder surgery last year and as a result, spent a lot of time working legs and trunk. I didn't get bulky on my legs. I read in your profile that you are 38. If you were 21, bulking may be a problem if you were lifting really heavy and eating for bulk. I got my squat up to 400 lbs from 200lbs in about 8 months. I had never done squats before. My thighs went up about an inch and calves about 1/2". I still have skinny legs.LOL Hope this helps.

--------------
A problem ceases to be such when you can laugh about it.

Charlie
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/04/28, 03:00 PM
heres and intresting quote.......Your only as strong as your weakest link.........it may come back and haunt you not traing legs......heres a good case.

I'm a cheerleader have been for almost 6 years....I do a full body workout split up between 3 to 4 days a week. Except for one muscle group I neglected.....forarms. if you know what coed cheering is like its alot of upperbody and squeezing the girls feet etc. so i have never rally trained them.
This past year though somthing happend though, that set me back strength wise for about 3 months.....I strained my brachalis/ lower bicep doing a basket toss.( in a backet tos 4 guys can easly "throw " a girl about 25 to 30 ft in the air) but what goes up must coem down. When I caught her I felt a pull in my left arm.......several weeks later I went to a doc. and I strained my lower bicep as well as my brachalis. My bicep healed quickly since it was strong, but my brachalis took almost 2 1/2 months to fully heal, and it still kinda bothers me somtimes to this day.
Take it from me, train everything cause my weakest link came back and bit me in the ass, and knocked me down too.

--------------
.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
......minds are not vessles to be filled, but fires to be enlightened
......Confucious once said ,DO NOT play leap frog with a unicorn

Shane123
Shane123
Posts: 148
Joined: 2003/11/27
United States
2004/04/28, 06:05 PM
People try to make training legs sound like taking steroids. That's what I mean by overrated.
Carivan
Carivan
Posts: 8,542
Joined: 2002/01/20
Canada
2004/04/28, 06:09 PM
Shane...slow down, nothing to do with roids. It's just that the legs support the biggest part of our body. In my opinion, between the knees and the waist, is the center of the universe. Now, go train your legs!:big_smile:

--------------
"A will finds a way, failure is not an option"
Ivan
carivan@freetrainers.com
Montreal Canada
7707mutt
7707mutt
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 2002/06/18
United States
2004/04/29, 07:46 AM
explain how traing legs is like taking steroids?

--------------
LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!

7707mutt@freetrainers.com
Shane123
Shane123
Posts: 148
Joined: 2003/11/27
United States
2004/04/29, 07:50 PM
That's what I'm wondering.
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/04/30, 01:16 PM
Who said that shane??

--------------
.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
......minds are not vessles to be filled, but fires to be enlightened
......Confucious once said ,DO NOT play leap frog with a unicorn

7707mutt
7707mutt
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 2002/06/18
United States
2004/04/30, 01:19 PM
Shane what did you mean!?

--------------
LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!

7707mutt@freetrainers.com
Shane123
Shane123
Posts: 148
Joined: 2003/11/27
United States
2004/05/01, 04:03 AM
People are always making comments about "you'll never get big without training legs" (sure you can) or "you should train legs to release growth hormones" (in negligible amounts) or "you'll burn a lot of fat" (just do HIIT). It always seems as though there's an overemphasis on legs in fitness forums, albeit not in gyms. Not that they shouldn't be done at all, mind you, just I've noticed a general overall excess of hype about them.
ioioio
ioioio
Posts: 302
Joined: 2004/01/29
Kuwait
2004/05/01, 12:39 PM
I'm real confused, what do roids have to do with all this?????
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/05/02, 11:15 AM
Thats because you won't get big with out training your legs, we walk on our legs for a reason, not are arms. An actually no...shane take a look at the posts they are always about chest arms and shoulders......very few about legs.........Like I said before your only strong as your weakest muscle. Lots of guys i have seen blow their knees out in sports, where not because of squats.... but because they didn't train them. Soccer players do work their legs out,, they think they don't need too. My senior year we had 4 guys blow one of their knees out.......all of which didn't train their legs. coenidance?(sp) hmm you think about that. finally... squats or legs don't just build muscle, they also strengthin the tendons, ligiments etc.

YOu can try and be smart and say its like taking steriods....too me your just making excuses for people who don't like to train legs. When your arguemnt has no support.

--------------
.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
......minds are not vessles to be filled, but fires to be enlightened
......Confucious once said ,DO NOT play leap frog with a unicorn

Shane123
Shane123
Posts: 148
Joined: 2003/11/27
United States
2004/05/02, 11:50 AM
I think that depends on your goals and how you define big. If you want to be a bodybuilder, you definitely can't not train legs. Most people don't set that goal, though. Most male models and people I tend to think of as in shape don't do much for legs, aside from running. I never see anyone doing deads, cleans, jerks, etc. The squat rack is used far more commonly for curls than squats, though I'll occasionally see people doing those, machine hacks, leg presses, and lunges. Most guys also avoid the silly machines that women love so much. The general public obviously believes that from a purely aesthetic point of view, legs are the least important part of the body for men.

I'm not saying it's like taking steroids. That's what many people try to make it sound like, though. I'm not making excuses. I'm saying they're worth training... they're just not worth the hype of making it sound like you'll never get anywhere without training them. Granted, that can be said for other things as well.
howdiekat
howdiekat
Posts: 1,345
Joined: 2003/05/22
United States
2004/05/02, 12:58 PM
first of all shane, how many male models do you know, just out of curiosity? now that we've gotten that out of the way, how unattractive is an unbalanced physique? i don't do anything but laugh at guys who have huge upper bodies but can wear spandex shorts and look like teenage girls on the bottom. the only thing that says to me is "i enjoy looking like a drag queen."

not to mention, andrew is 100% right about a person only being as strong as their weakest muscle. how is your body supposed to support all of the bulk you've built up top if you don't train anything on the bottom? the only advantage of having a gigantic upper body is that you can get your wheelchair around when you're recovering from your reconstructive knee surgery because you have sissy legs.

and as for the "silly" machines that you say women love so much, i assume you're talking about the abductor and adductor machines (or the yes/no machines as i like to call them), because i don't find anything silly about quad extensions or ham curls. i actually see more men doing sets on these machines than i see on the squat rack or the leg sled.

i understand what you're trying to say about people making leg training into an all-or-nothing type of issue with weight lifting in general, but there is a lot of merit in the argument that you will get farther if you'll just train the stems. think about it!

--------------
success comes before work only in the dictionary. that's right.
Anni313
Anni313
Posts: 1,790
Joined: 2004/03/04
United States
2004/05/02, 02:29 PM
Howdiekat is sooo right.

I live in a small farming community of about 1400 people. When I first moved here I naturally inquired about available men. Well, first of all, available and desirable are not the same thing, second, the pickins are slim.

My friends pointed me in the direction of one guy in particular. They said he was tall, good looking and very built, except that he has tiny stick legs, and then they laughed. Sure enough, this guy is way gorgeous from the waist up, but I have better looking legs than he does.

What's the moral of this little story? Even corn fed girls from Kansas know better than to ignore leg training.


--------------
Anni

*******
Have you hugged your EFAs today?
2004/05/02, 02:36 PM
I think we scared the original poster. I do so love a passionate discussion. Anni, just in case I ever find my self single again. You said somthing about inquiring about single men. Is there some kind of government office where you go to do that? I can't keep up with this modern world.
Anni313
Anni313
Posts: 1,790
Joined: 2004/03/04
United States
2004/05/02, 03:22 PM
lol No government office, however in my small town you can just stop and ask anyone. It would be nice if single men were required to register somewhere, talk about selective service. lol





--------------
Anni

*******
Have you hugged your EFAs today?
7707mutt
7707mutt
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 2002/06/18
United States
2004/05/02, 04:59 PM


============
Quoting from Shane123:

People are always making comments about "you'll never get big without training legs" (sure you can) or "you should train legs to release growth hormones" (in negligible amounts) or "you'll burn a lot of fat" (just do HIIT). It always seems as though there's an overemphasis on legs in fitness forums, albeit not in gyms. Not that they shouldn't be done at all, mind you, just I've noticed a general overall excess of hype about them.
=============
I think that if you look at those that do legs and those that do legs but not squats(ie non squat exercises) you can see a very noticeable difference in muscle mass. As for the hormone remark it does increase test more than any other exercise. I think legs is underrated by those scared of really training them the right way.:dumbbell:

--------------
LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!

7707mutt@freetrainers.com
Shane123
Shane123
Posts: 148
Joined: 2003/11/27
United States
2004/05/02, 10:40 PM
I'm assuming the people who write Men's Health know male models. I will admit it's possible, however, that they have spy cams to get their photos. I'm also going based on what I've seen in my personal experience in gyms, though. FWIW, huge is out... and has been for quite some time. Which pretty much negates the balance of your first two paragraphs. If people want to get huge, more power to them, but that's not most people. Ask Bill Phillips. (No, I don't know him either.)

I agree that training legs can help. But if someone doesn't want to train legs (much or at all) because they believe the exercises are dangerous, are recovering from an injury, believe the time can best be spent elsewhere, or are already satisfied with what they've got, I don't have much problem with that.

The vast majority of hormone release comes during deep sleep. Legs workouts are not a major contributor. Not that they can't help.

I used to do a full leg routine every 4-5 days and actually do enjoy a good leg workout. Still think they're overrated.
howdiekat
howdiekat
Posts: 1,345
Joined: 2003/05/22
United States
2004/05/03, 12:09 AM
well if you want to attack the balance of my first 2 paragraphs i suggest you read them thoroughly before you tear them down. never attack a copy editor's work - we correct people for a living and we always check facts.

1) i did not say that "huge" was in. i am quite aware of the current metrosexual craze that has swept the nation. what i did say was that an unbalanced physique was unattractive, meaning two things: that for the men who do choose to get huge, they had better train their legs as well to avoid looking like drag queens, and for the guys who are going for the metro look, balance your innocent iowa farm boy upper body with some legs that are at least fit to push a wheelbarrow around.

2) go do a google search for brandon davidson. why brandon davidson? because he happens to be the one male model that i know. fun facts about brandon: at one point we had the exact same hair cut and people used to mistake me for him on the a&m campus, he uses a flat iron to straighten his locks for sorority formal events, and when i used to run into him working out at the a&m rec center, he had 1 leg day a week to make sure that his skinny legs were keeping some definition instead of just looking scrawny. and yes, brandon is a very skinny boy. he would be about a 2 in women's clothing. while this is just one example of a male model doing leg work, it is a valid one. the writers at men's health, or any at other media entity, can take any random sample of the male modeling population and generalize the exercise habits of the entire community. that doesn't mean it's true. the last time i looked at men's health it was telling readers how to have amazing sex every day until the end of time, but i don't think their methods are working out too well for 90% of the audience.

i hope this clears up what you tried to refute in your last post, albeit unsuccessfully. never did i say that huge was in, but thanks for putting words into my mouth. i'll just be spitting them out now.

--------------
success comes before work only in the dictionary. that's right.
Anni313
Anni313
Posts: 1,790
Joined: 2004/03/04
United States
2004/05/03, 06:56 AM
1) I think we can all agree that the people who know what they are doing train their whole body, not just part of it.

2) Since when is huge "out?" It's not "out" in Anni Land.

3) Howdiekat, does the ? belong inside or outside of the quotation marks?

4) What in the hell is a metrosexual? It sounds dreadful.


--------------
Anni

*******
Have you hugged your EFAs today?
dahayz
dahayz
Posts: 794
Joined: 2002/05/08
United States
2004/05/03, 07:29 AM
I find that people who say "big is out" are the same people who can't get big. I like to call this, lazy, undertraining syndrome, please. I'll take being the big one than the skinny little toned fitness model dude who's arms are no bigger than the girl he is with any day of the week. My favorite saying is as follows: I am the big wolf among the little herd of sheep. Give me the deadlift any day of the week, give me a big back, and a big set of legs. People who don't get that concept, well, like I said, little sheep that follow the norm. No thanks.
howdiekat
howdiekat
Posts: 1,345
Joined: 2003/05/22
United States
2004/05/03, 10:43 AM
anni,

according to ap and mla style, periods and commas are the only punctuation that always go inside the quotes. exclamation points and question marks go inside when they apply to the quoted matter only. they go outside when they apply to the entire sentence. ex:

He said, "Who thinks training legs isn't importaint?"
Who wrote "The Importance of Training Legs"?

a metrosexual is commonly thought of as a straight man who could easily be mistaken for gay. you would probably look at a metrosexual man and say, "oh my, he's pretty!" he probably exfoliates, has great hair, and shops at either express, banana republic, or the trendy, upscale boutique that no other man you know would be caught dead in. i could go on and on, but this is the gist of the concept. i'm actually thankful for the craze because they have started making gorgeous shirts that i can wear to work and actually fit in the shoulders and the waist. the catch is that i have to buy them from the men's section, but it's funny because no one can tell the difference:)

--------------
success comes before work only in the dictionary. that's right.
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/05/03, 10:58 AM
Actually shane, I will find it when I get home but I have an article that backs up that leg peak test. During excercising......Now that thats said and done.......1st off models are paid to be pretty ok shane? If you wanna be a model be a model I don't care.......this is a fitness forum, which is overall mental and physical health! Most models take pictures from waist up, but also when you see their legs are are still toned and muscler....they didn't get that from sitting on their ass doing curls all day. Look like a model if you want to man, i'm here for to be a healthy human being overall.

--------------
.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
......minds are not vessles to be filled, but fires to be enlightened
......Confucious once said ,DO NOT play leap frog with a unicorn

Anni313
Anni313
Posts: 1,790
Joined: 2004/03/04
United States
2004/05/03, 12:49 PM
Howdiekat,

Thanks for looking that up for me. I have my apa and mla manuals not 2 feet away from my computer, but it's the end of the semester and I simply cannot bear the thought of opening them. You are a good person.

I shop for my favorite shirts in the men's department, too. I discovered a long time ago that I didn't have to date men and steal, I mean borrow, their shirts, I could just buy them and cut out all the bulls**t.

So a metrosexual is a straight man who, instead of getting in touch with MY feminine side, is getting in touch with his own? Doesn't sound manly to me.


--------------
Anni

*******
Have you hugged your EFAs today?
howdiekat
howdiekat
Posts: 1,345
Joined: 2003/05/22
United States
2004/05/03, 02:35 PM
no problem anni, i'm always up for questions about correct punctuation usage:)

you pretty much hit the bullseye with your understanding of a metrosexual. for some reason i can't trust a man who gets pedicures more often than i do. plus i like to be the better looking one in the relationship, however the fashion benefits of dating a metro can be great if you wear the same size...

--------------
success comes before work only in the dictionary. that's right.
jplatz
jplatz
Posts: 196
Joined: 2002/10/08
United States
2004/05/03, 08:16 PM
Firstly Shane, good job. You've created a ruckus. We need that around here. Gets the creative juices flowing.

Secondly, since you haven't filled out your profile, we can't determine where you are that you would get your ideas on leg training. However, it is clear that you've either been misinformed or haven't seen the true workout people at your gym.

Have you ever seen the magazines with photos of fitness models? These are women who don't want to get big at all because it will disrupt their symmetry. But all of them work their legs for the exact same reason. Working legs helps maintain that even look. Male models, female models, actors, everyone you appear to view as knowledgeable about having an ideal physique all work legs.

You stated that the writers of Men's Health must know male models, hence your comments about not getting huge. If you truly have read that magazine, you would know that they do emphasize total body workouts, including legs. They also include those "dangerous" exercises such as squats and deadlifts. Why? Because they help develop the total body.

You also seem to be focused on the the hormonal release from training legs. That should not be the focus though. Overall strength, regardless of size, comes from the legs. You can't safely pick up a box without using your legs, can you? Or a child, or anything for that matter. Our physical foundation is our legs, not our lats, chest, shoulders, or arms.

You also make frequent statements about "most people". This is generalizing and you can't do that. You don't truly know what most people want, can you? But let me ask you this. Who do you think most people would prefer to look like in terms of physique: Larry Allen, 350lbs offensive lineman with a big gut and fat everywhere, but he works his legs for power, or Alex Rodriguez or Nomar Garciaparra, lean baseball players, very little body fat, and they work their legs regularly for power and strength. The difference? The amount of weight they push. Personally, I would think "most" would prefer to be lean. But that lean physique also comes from working legs.

Open your mind to what the people here are saying. They have years of knowledge on their side and the experience to go with it. They know what they're talking about because they've lived it. From where does your information originate?

--------------
Pain is but a threshold to greater strength.
Shane123
Shane123
Posts: 148
Joined: 2003/11/27
United States
2004/05/03, 08:45 PM
That said, the balance arguement and the weakest link arguement would lead me to believe that only a small percentage of the population will benefit from leg work. I wouldn't go quite that far.

Lean and athletic hardly qualifies as metrosexual.

Did a search. Can't tell he works his legs. Arguably, I'm not supposed to be able to tell either. Admittedly, I couldn't find very much material about him, aside from one site.

Huge has been out since around the time hairiness went out. Granted, we're talking maybe a decade at most, and that may again change in another few years.

Anyone can get to 200+ pounds of mostly muscle if they really want to. They'll have to battle genetics more often than not (either to drop the fat or gain the muscle), and some may need more time than others... but it's totally doable. Further, just like big and fat don't necessarily go together, lean and weak don't either. And, much like it takes a great deal of effort to get big, it takes a great deal of effort to not get big, barring very lucky genetics in either direction. In other words, it takes a great deal of effort to achieve the results you're looking for, no matter what they may be.

Achieving one's goals, whatever they may be, is a big contributor to both physical and mental health. As long as the goals don't involve something like anorexia, a solid exercise and nutrition program with good goals should net quality health results. While someone could argue that not putting a great deal of emphasis on legs is wrong, someone else can argue that squats are dangerous, someone else can argue that more than 100g of protein a day is bad, and someone else can argue that cardio is pointless. At some point, we're all going to get considered unhealthy if we let that get to us.

I was going to fill out my profile but couldn't figure it out and didn't feel like searching for it.

For women, working legs is an image thing... people actually care what their legs look like.

I never said squats and deads are dangerous. That doesn't mean there aren't people who believe they are. I think we'll all acknowledge that, regardless of our views. Part of their readership is interested in leg work... I can't blame them (nor will I blame those who aren't).

I'm not focused on the hormonal release... I already called that negligible. On the flip side, see how much someone can lift with weak arms or a weak core.

People are heavily influenced by what they see and hear. As mentioned earlier, this is why EAS is what it is today.

Working legs can be a contributing factor to leanness. It's not a requirement for being lean, though.

As the one going against the grain (and knowing full well I probably would be going against the grain), I think that would be considered a sign of open mindedness. Perhaps I must simply accept everything you say as fact in order to be open minded (granted, I've heard nothing here I haven't heard in the past). My information comes from paying attention the world around me. That's why I'm largely referring to others, rather than myself. Not everyone is going to accept these views... I don't believe they should be made to feel they'll never achieve their goals if they don't. Because if that happens, it's potentially more detrimental than not accepting the views could ever be.
dahayz
dahayz
Posts: 794
Joined: 2002/05/08
United States
2004/05/03, 09:29 PM
You might call it "going against the grain" like you have some crazy new ideas, but I like to call it lack of knowledge. You are the typical weight trainer I have to deal with on a daily basis at work, but you know what, who really cares. If you think you can achieve your max potential by neglecting half of your body, well, maybe you should stop reading Men's health and taking your own "experiences" in the gym, and not apply them to everyone else. Where is all of your misinformation coming from? And trust me, lean and weak can certainly go hand in hand.
Anni313
Anni313
Posts: 1,790
Joined: 2004/03/04
United States
2004/05/03, 09:41 PM
What? For women, working their legs is an image thing?

You mean, it doesn't really matter whether they work or not, as long as they look good?

Oh yeah Shane, every morning when I get out of bed and don't have to use my CANE, I think, well it doesn't matter that my legs are weak because they look good. It isn't necessary for me to be or feel like a whole person, because I'm just a woman. I can quit pushing myself for strength because it's a superfluous, vain activity. It may surprise you to learn that I haven't spent the last four years working myself to exhaustion for the purpose of making myself look better.

I cannot at this moment think of anything bad enough to call you that the moderator's would not be obliged to censor. How dare you attempt to make the women on this site feel that their efforts mean less than any man's.




--------------
Anni

*******
Have you hugged your EFAs today?
jplatz
jplatz
Posts: 196
Joined: 2002/10/08
United States
2004/05/03, 09:49 PM
It would appear that your basis for your knowledge comes from print and video media. What you observe from looking at pictures. However, what you don't see is the work that has gone into that person's physique. They train their entire body including their legs.

What do you consider a weak core? The midsection? I'm sorry, but here you are quite misinformed. The true core of any lifting program is legs. Also, if you take a look at any company's lifting technique, ie UPS and FedEx, they require that you lift with your legs. Why? Because they are the strongest muscles in the body and the least likely to be injured. The do not tell you to build your arms and pick up a package. You can lift far more with weak arms and a weak midsection using your legs then you ever will by just bending over and trying to pick-up something with your arms.

You've mentioned EAS and Bill Phillips before. In your argument against the necessity for leg training you have apparently failed to look at his Body-for-life training guide. The first bodypart worked is legs. EAS gets a great deal of business from people who work out and aspire to look like bodybuilders and fitness athletes along with those lean baseball, basketball, football and hockey players. All of whom must work their legs in order to be strong.

Since you seem to choose which part of a paragraph to address and take certain aspects out of context, allow me to clarify something. While working legs is a contributing factor, the overview of that paragraph was the emphasis on total body conditioning. That conditioning involves leg work. Actually, it is requred for being lean too. Muscle burns fat far more efficiently, and the largest muscles in the body are in the legs. By working the legs, your entire body begins to burn fat better.

You say you've observed those around you. So have I. Those who truly work their entire body make the desired alterations to their physiques, not just those who work their upper bodies. I have seen men and women at my gym who work only upper body. Over the last 2 years, they have had no change to their physique at all. Those who work their legs have gained muscularity, leanness, and overall, strength.

As was stated before, the guys who walk around with big upper bodies and skinny legs get laughed at. Why? Because they look like upside down bowling pins. Have you ever tried standing a bowling pin upside down? It falls. The reason is because it doesn't have a firm, wide, solid foundation...but it has a big upper body. Yet when you put it right side up, it stands strong, sometimes not falling even to the ball. Strong foundations allow for the rest of the body to be strong.

You're opinions don't have to match the rest of the exercise world's exactly, but there are certain undisputable facts. One of those facts is that leg training is the foundation for all successful programs. Another is that diet is 80-90% of overall weight and fat loss. The rest of the body grows as your legs grow.

We respect opinions here, but you need to be aware of your facts before you make comments about exercise foundations. There are far too many years worth of education and experience here.

--------------
Pain is but a threshold to greater strength.
howdiekat
howdiekat
Posts: 1,345
Joined: 2003/05/22
United States
2004/05/03, 10:40 PM
in response to anni's post...YEAH! i am far more than 1/2, or in my case 2/3, of a person, thank you very much. and anni, should we stick asimmer on this post?

and i might add at the risk of sounding like a cocky biatch, i have perfect legs without having to do a damn thing. yes, that's right, if all i was concerned with was apperance instead of training smart, i wouldn't have to be working my legs. but when it comes to the stems, as well as the rest of my body, appearance is not what i'm proud of or concerned with. i am proud, however to be able to get under 780lbs on the leg sled and watch all the pretty boys' mouths hit the floor.

not all women are in the gym so that we can look good for the boys. i know the only person i'm in there for is myself. quite frankly my upper body intimidates most men anyway, which i kind of like - it's a filtering device for weeding out the insecure a**holes who are only concerned with appearance.

and on another note, if you look at the typical "i'm in love with myself" metrosexual man, lean and athletic is precisely what you will find underneath their multi-striped spread collar shirt. how exactly would you describe david beckham? and yes, he is the original metro and he's not ashamed of it. there's nothing wrong with being a metrosexual i just don't like it when i look just as good in their clothes as they do.


--------------
success comes before work only in the dictionary. that's right.
7707mutt
7707mutt
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 2002/06/18
United States
2004/05/04, 08:08 AM
OK lets all stop posting unless you have something constructive! Any more name calling will be deleted.....I said lets play nice LOL. OK?

--------------
LIFT HEAVY! BECOME STRONG, LIKE BULL!

7707mutt@freetrainers.com
WAnglais1
WAnglais1
Posts: 329
Joined: 2003/10/23
United States
2004/05/04, 12:37 PM
Boy, this has really stirred things up around here. Nice ot have that happen every now and then.

============
Quoting from howdiekat:
and i might add at the risk of sounding like a cocky biatch, i have perfect legs without having to do a damn thing. yes, that's right, if all i was concerned with was apperance instead of training smart, i wouldn't have to be working my legs. but when it comes to the stems, as well as the rest of my body, appearance is not what i'm proud of or concerned with. i am proud, however to be able to get under 780lbs on the leg sled and watch all the pretty boys' mouths hit the floor.
=============
howdiekat good for you! That's always great to hear and/or see. And, geeze, I may be in love! :big_smile:
bigandrew
bigandrew
Posts: 5,146
Joined: 2002/10/21
United States
2004/05/04, 05:31 PM
onlythingis I wish I have metrosexuals "style" sense......cause i can't dress my self lol....maybe thats why i'm single :surprised: lol


--------------
.......adversity causes some to break, but others to break records!
......minds are not vessles to be filled, but fires to be enlightened
......Confucious once said ,DO NOT play leap frog with a unicorn

Shane123
Shane123
Posts: 148
Joined: 2003/11/27
United States
2004/05/04, 09:04 PM
This was a mildly interesting and entertaining debate for a while. Too bad it had to take the turn it did. Perhaps it's still interesting, but I only read another paragraph or so. I would respond to all the replies, but it appears people need to learn a bit of respect before they're ready to participate in such debates or even arguably any discussions. Not everyone (or even most for that matter), but still... screw this. At least now everyone will be on the same page. Boring but safe.

I myself don't need advice. Not that I don't believe that every day isn't an opportunity to both learn and teach (and from which learn some more). (If you don't believe this as well, pay more attention.) But I have an extremely fine tuned routine (FWIW, it does include legs, albeit just 10 or 12 sets a week at this point - may go up, may go down... not really relevant to me until it happens) that is producing rapid quality results that, if I believed everything people wish were true, I'd think aren't possible. As if I'd let that stop me.

That said, a word of caution before I go. There will be those who do need advice. Remember that they may take different paths toward different goals, or even, sometimes, the same goal. There is no one right way, and they can achieve (or even blow away) their goals whether they listen to you or not. Don't expect them to do so. They may listen, but they may not. Accept that while continuing your quest to educate and/or motivate. Fail to accept it, and you may fail to complete that quest.
howdiekat
howdiekat
Posts: 1,345
Joined: 2003/05/22
United States
2004/05/04, 09:24 PM
with all do respect shane, i do believe the reason that anni and i got so upset is because you made an extraordinarily sexist remark that i did not feel required a polite response. i will debate with you over issues regarding the weightroom tactfully until my face turns blue, but the second you attack my worth as a woman i feel i am justified to tell you exactly what i think in any manner i see fit. i would expect, and accept, the same from any man if i chose to demean his value as a male.

that being said, i apologize if i have offended you with the straightforward remarks in my last post, but you should think about generalizing why women choose to workout before you state it as fact. i found your comment both degrading and disgusting and i would hope that if you take nothing else away from this post, you would understand that there is much more to a woman than merely the image that she projects with the appearance of her body. i wish you luck in reaching your goals on your current lifting plan, and i hope that you achieve great results using your alternative philosophy.

--------------
success comes before work only in the dictionary. that's right.
Jdelts
Jdelts
Posts: 1,218
Joined: 2003/10/19
United States
2004/05/05, 12:14 AM
Good for you ANNI!!! Don't settle for that patriarchal sexist bullsh*t. Generalizations breed stereotypes. Stereotypes breed oppression. Oppression breeds resentment and hate(with good reason). You and Howdie have every right to stand by your point and be "strait-forward". I hope you can understand though that some men are ignorant and don't recognize that they have been brought up in a sexist society. We are taught from birth what gender roles "should" be. These roles/stereotypes are then perpetuated by reinforcement from parents, peers and of course, the media. You every right to be angry though. Good for you.:big_smile::love:

============
Quoting from anni313:

What? For women, working their legs is an image thing?

You mean, it doesn't really matter whether they work or not, as long as they look good?

Oh yeah Shane, every morning when I get out of bed and don't have to use my CANE, I think, well it doesn't matter that my legs are weak because they look good. It isn't necessary for me to be or feel like a whole person, because I'm just a woman. I can quit pushing myself for strength because it's a superfluous, vain activity. It may surprise you to learn that I haven't spent the last four years working myself to exhaustion for the purpose of making myself look better.

I cannot at this moment think of anything bad enough to call you that the moderator's would not be obliged to censor. How dare you attempt to make the women on this site feel that their efforts mean less than any man's.





=============
asimmer
asimmer
Posts: 8,201
Joined: 2003/01/07
United States
2004/05/05, 09:13 AM
OOOh, what have I been missing?:big_smile:

There is no such thing as an unimportant bodypart. Yes, many people work their legs for endurance by running, plyometrics, etc. But imagine how much faster and more powerful they would be if they brought their quads and hammies up with some serious weight training (look at the hammies on the olympians sometime!).

Leg training, core training, upper body training. All are important for function and balance, and as a side effect, aesthetics.

I used to work my legs to look good. I admit it, I like winning the best butt and legs contest at the bar... now I work for size and power. I also focus on my legs for the future, as I train my older clients and see the efects of aging and neglect on their legs and their functional quality of life.

Yes, many magazines will give out workout programs - and many of the models may profess to not train a certain body part. That is their current routine, it speaks nothing of their years of previous training. Take Monica brant, for example, she used to be much more muscular and has trimmed off a lot of muscle in trying to figure out what the fitness judges want. She may not work legs now, and may be unable to work chest now due to implants, but that is neglecting to mention the years of heavy weight training under her belt.

Models tend to be genetically blessed, it doesn't take much work for most of them to look good.

I think everyone, including Shane, is agreeing that working legs is important. But it is not the be-al and end-all of training as many old-style trainers would have you believe. A hardcore leg program is nothing without a hardcore ab and lowback program and a harcore upper body program, good nutrtional support and adequate rest.

Yes, training the large muscles of the legs burns calories and increases some growth hormone/testosterone release, but we are just starting to understand the role that nutrition and rest play in hormone regulation.

Look at the whole as being important and train for your personal goals.

Oh, and I have only one thing to say about boys with big chests and twiggy legs - "CHICKEN!!!!":big_smile:

--------------
If you fall down seven times, get up eight.
Anni313
Anni313
Posts: 1,790
Joined: 2004/03/04
United States
2004/05/05, 09:59 AM
Behold the very feminine combination of true intelligence and the beautifully sculpted bodies that you see in asimmer and howdiekat (and Danielle even though she wisely chose to avoid this chaos).

That, my friends, is what sexy REALLY is, head to toe.


--------------
Anni

*******
Have you hugged your EFAs today?
hecdarec
hecdarec
Posts: 2,457
Joined: 2003/12/16
United States
2004/05/05, 10:19 AM
I wanted to throw in my 2 cents on this subject. I have always found that leg day is the hardest, yet most rewarding workout. I feel exhausted after I am finished. To me it makes my whole body feel stronger. I suppose that would be because my legs are holding me up. So for myself I will say that legs are VERY important to work.

I would also like to take this moment to say that I am extremely grateful for intelligent women on this board such as anni, howdie, and asimmer. You guys add a different perspective to these posts and are a joy to communicate with.

--------------
Would it be classified as overly competitive if I refused to let a 4 year old beat me at chutes and ladders?
2004/05/05, 11:15 AM
All the he vs she stuff is amusing. It would never dawn on me to break this discussion down in to a he/she thing than it would most other things in life. My wife retired as a vp of a mid size company. If this kind of thing were argued in her world she would roll heads be they male or female. I am surprised at you young folks allowing this to become a serious issue.

Any way I actually have an observation and question that pertains to leg training. I train my legs about as hard as a geezer can. I do my squats, leg curls, leg extensions, lunges , run my stairs and ride my bike. I never squated before last May. I have built my squat up to 400 lbs. Wooooooo. Thats great. Well balony. I recently renovated a new condo and my legs were invariably the first thing to give out each day. My knees hurt and rising from the floor many times a day was difficult at best.

I feel like all the leg training was a failure. Have I missed somthing in my method that would have served me better when it came to practical uses for this training. I am not discouraged enough to quit training my legs but I would love to hear some ideas that may give me a more practical leg strength.

You ladies can kick in here. I won't discount your answers because you are weak little girls.:big_smile:

--------------
There is no joy in mudville.

Charlie
1 2 of 2 pages resultset_next resultset_last