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2006/05/06, 11:03 AM
Ok, this should be right up most peoples alley. Many numbers have been kicked around for calorie deficits to save lbm and shed fat. From Lyle McDonald, here is a synopsis. I am listing the reference paper this is based on at the end.
This is a general synopsis......
Basically the paper states the following...what is the maximum rate at which the body can derive energy from fat stores to cover a diet induced deficit while sparing lean body mass.
Based on a somewhat simplified analysis of what data exists (including the seminal Minnesota semi-starvation experiment), they conclude that the maximal rate at which fat stores can provide energy to the body is 290 +- 25 kj/kg which is approximately 31 kcal/lb of fat per day.
So, if you are carrying a mere 10 lbs. of fat, you can sustain a 310 cal/day deficit.
20 lbs. = 620 calories.
30 lbs. = 930 calories
(If you can't figure that out, here....) Multiply your total fat mass in pounds by 31, that’s how much of a caloric deficit that fat mass can support on a daily basis.
So long as the net daily deficit does not exceed what your fat stores can provide, you should spare lean body mass. And based on the small amount of research that they found, this seemed to be generally true (many studies find an initial rapid LBM loss but this is most likely glycogen and water and stuff, not muscle mass). By extension, if your daily caloric deficit exceeds the above, your body will have to mobilize LBM to cover the difference.
Now, exercise if you are doing it, and to what degree will have to be factored in, so your deficit may be smaller, but this is a very good general idea.
Alpert SS. A limit on the energy transfer rate from the human fat store in hypophagia. J Theor Biol. 2005 Mar 7;233(1):1-13.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/05/06, 05:49 PM
That's another good candidate for a thumb tack Ron.
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Mike
in Pensacola Now.
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2006/05/10, 12:03 PM
It is amazing to me...I make a post like this, and noone looks at it. Yet, there is probably 20 posts since at least on how do I do a diet, etc. No sense in making it a sticky, noone will read it.
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Quoting from mikencharleston:
That's another good candidate for a thumb tack Ron.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/05/10, 12:05 PM
I agree, it seems no one can do a search either. Shame really only about 10,000 good posts stored here. LOL.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/10, 12:12 PM
OK so here goes My BF is 33% so that means that I can withstand 1023/cals a day loss from my over all cal intake?
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/10, 01:47 PM
I found your post today, Ron:big_smile: and I do appreciate it even though it's very technical and a challange to understand for me, mutts post helped me clear up the confusion:cool:
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"One Ring to rule them all; One Ring to find them; One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them." -LOTR Trilogy
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2006/05/10, 01:50 PM
I am not sure if that is correct Manny. 33% is about 103 lbs of fat. So if you take this "If you can't figure that out, here....) Multiply your total fat mass in pounds by 31, that’s how much of a caloric deficit that fat mass can support on a daily basis. " t
that means I have 3300+ touse for a deficit? See I hate math LOL
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/10, 02:08 PM
Dang, and I thought I finally saw the diet light:big_smile: Now you got me all confused again, I think:surprised: .....So, I'm 5'7, 198 lbs and have 27% BF, so I guess that's about 53lbs of fat. This would give me a 1643 cal. deficit. Last week I stayed right between 1600 & 1700 cal. a day and lost 2lbs that week. So all of this would mean that this is the correct fat loss deficit for me, without losing muscle mass. Right?
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"One Ring to rule them all; One Ring to find them; One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them." -LOTR Trilogy
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2006/05/10, 02:10 PM
Dunno was hoping BB could shed some light on it.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/10, 03:26 PM
Hmmm:surprised:, looks like we forgot about the extra calories when exercising. So let's say on a cardio day I burn about 400 cal. I guess that would bump me up to 2043 cal., the thing is, I have tried that and when I stay around 2000 cal/day I only maintain my weight :surprised: Please help Ron, are we on the right track? Don't give up on us:(
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"One Ring to rule them all; One Ring to find them; One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them." -LOTR Trilogy
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2006/05/10, 11:18 PM
I read it as well Ron, just haven't had the time to figure it out and comment on it. Doesn't mean I don't find it helpful. Just so I'm sure I understand this right, If I'm carrying 10 pounds of fat and have a calorie deficit that exceeds 310, lean mass will be burned. So in other words, you don't want to exceed the calorie deficit you calculate with the 31 times pounds of BF. Is this correct?
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Blow Up The Outside World-Chris Cornell
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2006/05/11, 02:56 AM
i actually find this post very interesting and helpful..especially for someone that wants to maintain muscle while losing weight.very helpful
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2006/05/11, 06:30 AM
With me that would mean I would have to have a deficit of close to 1000 calories per day to drop the weight.That seems like alot to me...
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2006/05/11, 11:14 AM
Well, we have to understand some things. And we have to use some common sense. It’s well established that…
a. fatter individuals lose more fat and less lean body mass (LBM) than leaner individuals; and
b. bigger individuals lose weight more quickly
By corollary, smaller/leaner individuals not only lose total weight/fat at a slower rate, they lose a greater proportion of LBM.
Read in the post that the study concludes "that the maximal rate at which fat stores can provide energy to the body is 290 +- 25 kj/kg which is approximately 31 kcal/lb of fat per day".
So, normal eating people can relatively do this... Multiply your total fat mass in pounds by 31, that’s how much of a caloric deficit that fat mass can SUPPORT on a daily basis.
One note must be addressed..... the above values are for dieting only and one of the simplifying assumptions in the paper was relatively ‘normal/moderate’ activity levels.
the basic assertion of the paper is that, so long as the net daily deficit does not exceed what your fat stores can provide, you should spare lean body mass. And based on the small amount of research that they found, this seemed to be generally true (many studies find an initial rapid LBM loss but this is most likely glycogen and water and stuff, not muscle mass). By extension, if your daily caloric deficit exceeds the above, your body will have to mobilize LBM to cover the difference.
Say we have a 180 lb male at 15% bodyfat. He has 27 lbs. of fat, and his maintenance calorie intake is 15 cal/lb or 2700 calories. With 27 lbs. of fat, he should be able to sustain a caloric deficit, from diet alone, of 27 lbs. fat * 31 cal/lb = 837 calories/day. So he could reduce his calories to 1863 (ha! 10 cal/lb) and shouldn’t lose any LBM at that level of intake. He should get a weekly fat loss of just over 1.5 lbs./week.
If the same 180 lb guy was at 10% bodyfat, only 18 lbs. of fat, he could only sustain a 558 calorie/day deficit (2150 cal/day or 12 cal/lb), he’s down to 1 pound per week. By the time he’s at 8%, he’s down to 14.5 lbs. of fat and a total deficit of 446 calories/day and about 2/3 a pound of fat loss/week. Oh yeah, if he were a fat shit at 30% bodyfat, that’s 54 lbs. of fat, he could sustain a deficit of over 1500 cal/day and lose over 3 pounds per week of pure lard; of course he’d only be eating 1300 cal/day. Again, the above all seem to roughly pass the reality check in terms of what we see in human dieters.
Here is an example directly from the paper....
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/05/11, 11:21 AM
What is your current weight and bf%? It may sound outlandish, but each lb. of bf can really sustain the 31 calorie deficit. Have you ever seen a fat person starve? :)
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Quoting from mysticgraces:
With me that would mean I would have to have a deficit of close to 1000 calories per day to drop the weight.That seems like alot to me...
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/05/11, 11:27 AM
So lets use me as a example I weigh 312 and my BF is 33%....so my question is of that 312 103lbs is fat. 103*31 = 3193 that is where I am confused.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/11, 12:38 PM
This formula doesn't seem to work for me:( I have been counting my calories for months now trying to fine tune my diet and it looks like 1600 calories per day is where I start to lose weight. If I go up to 1800-2000 cal. a day I maintain my weight. So if 2000 cal. is my maintenance caloric intake and I apply the formula I end up with an allowance of only 357 cal. per day:surprised: (my weight 198 lbs, BF 27% = 53 lbs BF x 31 = 1643 cal.; 2000 - 1643 = 357)
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"One Ring to rule them all; One Ring to find them; One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them." -LOTR Trilogy
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2006/05/11, 02:22 PM
7707mutt, what dont u understand? since u have 33% body fat, this means u have fat to spare..that is 103 lbs of fat..therefore, ur body has enough fat stores to get energy off of..therefore, ur body can decrease its calorie intake by 3,193 calories, and still spare the lean body mass..as your body fat% decreases, ur fat stores will decrease as well..this means ur calorie deficit per day will have to drop as well..hope this helps
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2006/05/11, 02:30 PM
If I understand this correctly, a simple way to look at this is--the higher your %BF, the less likely you are to burn lean muscle over fat. Therefore, someone with a high %BF can cut calories more drastically than someone with low %BF, without the worry of loosing lean muscle mass. Am I correct?
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2006/05/11, 02:30 PM
That part I get i guess what I am confused about is the 3193 calories. Where and what do they come from? Does that mean per week per day, if I take in 2500cals a day how does the 3193 cals play into that?
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/11, 02:30 PM
adding to my above comment, calculate ur average calorie intake per day..for example, i weigh about 190 and my body fat% is 20..i have 38 lbs of fat on me..31 x 38 = 1,178 (calories)..so i would take that total (1,178) and subtract it from my normal calorie intake of around 3,000 calories..therefore--- 3,000 - 1,178 = 1,822 calories..by consuming 1,822 calories per day, my fat stores could still maintain my lean muscle..
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2006/05/11, 02:49 PM
I don't think they understand what we're talking about Mutt. If Mutt only takes in 2500 cal. a day he can not subtract 3193 cal. from that. He'd be left in the minus = no calories/food at all. The same goes for me, I'd be left with only 357 calories per day. I asume the 2500 cal. are your maintenance calories, mutt? Our maintenance calories are very low.
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"One Ring to rule them all; One Ring to find them; One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them." -LOTR Trilogy
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2006/05/11, 03:33 PM
i understand..remember, this is the MAXIMUM calorie deficit..it does not mean u have to consume that less of calories for the diet to be effective..
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2006/05/11, 03:33 PM
HUH? Still confused..if I do not us that 3193 each day what is it there for?
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/11, 03:34 PM
I guess this is what I want to know...how do I use this info to lose weight(body fat).
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/11, 05:04 PM
diet and exercise are the keys to losing body fat..this post is just informing us how we are able to lose the most fat without losing any muscle..losing weight and fat are two separate things..by knowing how far we can reduce our calorie consumption per day, it gives us the maximum results..bb1fit, correct me if im wrong
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2006/05/11, 05:10 PM
so for a guy with a lot of fat on their body, they will be able to lose weight much quicker compared to that of someone with little fat
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2006/05/11, 08:25 PM
Mutt, simply stated, your right on with our math at 3193. How can you use this info to lose BF? Understand that the number(3193), is what you can safely call your "max" calorie deficit at this point in time before the switch is made from your body using fat stores as a fuel source to using LBM. With that being said, go back and re-read bb1's 3rd post in this thread.
This info stands to reason, why when you first start dieting, you start at maintenance and reduce your calories every couple weeks. You can continue to do this safely, sparing LBM, granted your P/C/F is right for your lifestyle, until you get to a point where your BF% is significantly lower. That's why the last little bit is so hard for most to lose. Also why it is advised to hold off on cardio when dieting down so it can be used as an additional deficit outside of intake. bb1's post, where important throughout, needs to be adhered to more when you get down to lower BF%'s. Read bb1's 3rd post carefully, it's all right there.
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Blow Up The Outside World-Chris Cornell
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2006/05/11, 08:28 PM
That is the whole problem that post makes no sense to me.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/11, 08:43 PM
You can SUPPORT a calorie deficit of 3193 daily sparing LBM. With you taking in only 2500 calories a day, you have a calorie deficit of 693 right off, you should be losing. Get it. The lower your BF in pounds gets, the lower the calorie deficit to spare LBM will get. Right now for you it is high because you have 103 pounds of BF.
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Blow Up The Outside World-Chris Cornell
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2006/05/11, 08:47 PM
Sso if I take in 2500 I can lower that by 693(not sure where that came from but ok, see math and such is not not storng point. Now ask me about history and archaeology I am the man), and still maitain my LBM?
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/11, 09:12 PM
First off, disregard the last numbers(2500 & 693). I was off, my mistake.
The way to look at it is how bb1 did. For example sake, say your at 300 pounds, your calories needs are roughly 15cal/lb or 4500 calories daily to maintain your current weight. You can SUPPORT a deficit of 3193 off that number and spare LBM. With that being said, the lowest your daily calorie intake could fall is 1307 before LBM was tapped into.
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Blow Up The Outside World-Chris Cornell
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2006/05/11, 09:12 PM
Let me see if I have it (or add to the confusion). In Mutt's case if he were to be consuming the 3193 cal/day, he would just maintain his weight as is. Correct? But with him eating only 2500cal/day, that is 693 (the 3193 - 2500)cal per day deficit. Over one week he would have a deficit of 4851 cal with a weight loss of 1.38 lbs. Is that correct or I am way off base?
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2006/05/11, 09:14 PM
Scratch my last post - I wwas writying it doing your posting
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2006/05/11, 09:15 PM
No atiger, that was my mistake, mutt is already eating below maintenace, I used 2500 as maintenace before thinking, I corrected in my last post.
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Blow Up The Outside World-Chris Cornell
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2006/05/11, 09:23 PM
Got it now. Now if train A leaves the station at 8:00am carrying oranges and is going 66 mph. Train B leaves at 8:15am carrying dogfood going 74mph, Which one will confuse me more?
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2006/05/11, 09:55 PM
I hear ya, I got MYSELF a little confused there as well. Time for a nap now.:)
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Blow Up The Outside World-Chris Cornell
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2006/05/12, 06:49 AM
Well I am really embarrased to say this. It is really hard for me to divulge this. I have been saying that I eat about 2500 cals. well I should have added 2000 more to that give or take 500 or so.
Yes that is right I eat around 4000 cals a day which is a real good reason why I have not lost any weight. I really thought either by choice, meaning that I knew that I ate that much and knowingly decided to ignore it, or I just really had no clue. I would like to think that I had no clue but we know that is not the case.
SO what does this mean? Obviously it means that I am a total fool and what is more I feel like I let the whole FT community down. I am completely ashamed about this, what was I thinking? For crying out loud I KNEW that to loose weight lower cals were needed. ARGH.
New plan: over the next week or so I am lowering the amount of cals I eat from around 4000 to 2500. That is a net loss of 1500 cals per day. My wife God bless her is going to help as she is now totaly into counting cals and eating the right foods.
Again I am so so soory for misleading everyone.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/12, 09:40 AM
Do not let it worry you at all Mutt. You did not mislead anyone. As for the 2500 cal, you just said IF you consumed that amt. i thought it was an example anyway. Good luck and you will do it
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2006/05/12, 12:08 PM
Ok, first off if Mutt is eating 2500 calories per day and still gaining weight, then he has something more wrong with him than simply diet.
We are assuming in this paper that an average calorie intake is 15 calories per lb. So, in Mutts case, he is well under maintenance, and this all gets tossed!
Continuing on with our 180 lb. bodybuilder....
Our 180 lb man at 15% starts his diet. He has 27 lbs. of fat and can sustain a maximum deficit of 27 lbs. * 31 cal/lb = 837 calories. Assuming a maintenance of 15 cal/lb (2700), his starting calorie level will be 2700 cal - 837 calories = 1863 calories/day. He’ll be losing around 1.5 lb fat/week.
So now we check in 8 weeks later, he’s down 12 lbs., almost purely of fat (we’ll ignore any small LBM losses). His new numbers are 168 lbs. with 15 lbs. of fat = 9% bodyfat. Maximal sustainable deficit = 15 * 31 = 465 cal
Assuming his maintenance is still 15 cal/lb (not automatically a safe assumption), his maintenance requirements should now be 2520 calories. But the adaptive part of metabolic rate reduction has probably dropped him a good 10% below that. So let’s say his maintenance is 2250 cal/day or so. 2250 cal/day - 465 calories = 1785 calories. So, not much of a reduction from his previous 1863 calorie/day diet. Basically, the drop in his maintenance levels over the course of 8 weeks offsets the fact that he can’t sustain as much of a deficit and is now leaner. Of course, his fat loss has also slowed to just under a pound/week.
Now four weeks later, he’s dropped about 4 more pounds of fat. His new numbers are
164 lbs. with 11 lb of fat = 6.7% bodyfat. Maximal sustainable deficit = 11 * 31 = 341 cal
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Quoting from atiger:
Let me see if I have it (or add to the confusion). In Mutt's case if he were to be consuming the 3193 cal/day, he would just maintain his weight as is. Correct? But with him eating only 2500cal/day, that is 693 (the 3193 - 2500)cal per day deficit. Over one week he would have a deficit of 4851 cal with a weight loss of 1.38 lbs. Is that correct or I am way off base?
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/05/12, 12:39 PM
Mutt...don't mean to pick at you, but even at 4K calories I doubt that would keep you where you are in weight, unless you have something going on like thyroid problems, etc. A 180 lb. guy trying to gain can easily take in 4K calories per day when trying to gain weight.
Do you actually keep a log or write down what you eat each day? It is not unusual for someone who does not do this to underestimate their caloric intake by as much as 50%. Check into this.
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
Well I am really embarrased to say this. It is really hard for me to divulge this. I have been saying that I eat about 2500 cals. well I should have added 2000 more to that give or take 500 or so.
Yes that is right I eat around 4000 cals a day which is a real good reason why I have not lost any weight. I really thought either by choice, meaning that I knew that I ate that much and knowingly decided to ignore it, or I just really had no clue. I would like to think that I had no clue but we know that is not the case.
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Strength and Honor!
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2006/05/12, 12:43 PM
I am keeping a log of it. We did a count last night and I did take in at least 4000 probally more. When I do a BMR count it comes to 4100 or so to maintain. My plan right now is to use a online calorie journal and slowly get to 2500 cals.
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Less Talk, More Chalk!
The Men and Boys are Separated by one thing: The Squat Cage!
7707mutt@freetrainers.com
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2006/05/12, 05:01 PM
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Quoting from 7707mutt:
I am keeping a log of it. We did a count last night and I did take in at least 4000 probally more.
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Why don't you know how many calories it was for sure? If there are foods that you don't know how many calories they have and you can't find that information anywhere, I wouldn't eat those foods for a while. Only eat what you can count. Why don't you log everything on this site, the nutrition tracker works great. I use it almost every day:)
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"One Ring to rule them all; One Ring to find them; One Ring to bring them all, and in the Darkness bind them." -LOTR Trilogy
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2006/05/13, 11:57 AM
So I need to loose 15 lbs I would cut down by 465 cal a day.
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2006/05/13, 04:13 PM
No, if your carrying 15/lbs of fat, you can safely SUPPORT a calorie deficit of 465 off your maintenance without cutting into LBM.
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Days go by and life drags on.....
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2006/05/13, 04:34 PM
I don't want to confuse you sivysivy. But I think your saying you just want to lose 15 pounds. Now if you are saying you have 15 pounds of fat to lose, you are right in your post. If you just need to lose 15 pounds though, you need to determine what your BF% is, figure out your amount of fat in pounds and times it by 31. That number will be the maximum safe, daily calorie deficit you can SUPPORT and spare LBM. In other words, your body will be using fat stores to provide energy, sparing LBM.
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Days go by and life drags on.....
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2006/05/14, 11:31 PM
Thanks Mojo. I understand a lot better now.
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2006/05/17, 11:48 PM
just a general question...how long until you determine how many lbs of fat are on you for the 2nd time, so u can adjust your calories?
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2006/05/18, 10:51 AM
You adjust your calories when you level off and quit losing. This thread is only intended to show the MAX calorie deficit to spare LBM when you make that reduction. Look at it as sort of a "safety gauge". You still start with your maintenance and reduce to the given safe amount. Once you level off, you do another BF% check, could be 4 weeks, could be 6 or 8. Re-establish what your maintenance is and adjust according to your current BF%.
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Days go by and life drags on.....
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2006/05/18, 02:11 PM
Since this is based off of sedentary individuals, how do you factor in the amount of exercise you do?
What if you figured out what your maintenance caloric intake is, when you're exercising, and then use the above formula?
Would that work, and is there a better way?
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