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2004/10/26, 01:07 PM
Things are simply too quiet around here so I thought we might kick around a question from my philosophy class.
The topic in general is the morality of prostitution. Taken to a finer point, some feminists argue that sex, mercenary or not, pollutes women.
Statement: Women (in American culture) are valued NOT for their sexual experience, but for their "innocence." The act of sexual intercourse with a man is seen as damaging to a woman in most contexts.
This is not an invitation to bash men or women. It should be viewed as an opportunity to think critically about the statement. Remember, this is a topic in one of my college courses and not an invitation or license to abandon or lower the standards of behavior for this website.
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 01:13 PM
I do not believe that sex pollutes women. I believe that insecure men pollute women. If you are secure in yourself as a man you wouldnt be all that concerned with your partners sexual experience, unless ofcourse she was a hooker, in which case you need to bolt.
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/26, 01:19 PM
So some sex, in the context of a socially acceptable relationship is not harmful, but sex in the context of a business relationship is harmful?
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 01:22 PM
My wife gives as good as she gets. We both pay. I have no personal knowlege of prostitution.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/26, 03:04 PM
I do not want to be in a relationship with a woman who has been with a platoon of men. I don't care if it was for money or not.
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/26, 03:11 PM
How many men are there in a platoon? company? division? brigade? How about a destroyer load?
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/26, 03:12 PM
There is no right or wrong answer, the whole thing is subjective. You appear to be in agreement with the statement that sexual intercourse with a man is damaging to a woman in most contexts.
What if the woman was a prostitute in order to feed her children because she had no marketable skills and unless she has sex for money, her children will starve. Is it still damaging to her, or has she done the noble thing and could she still be considered a suitable wife/girlfriend?
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 03:23 PM
Are you a prostitute?
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/26, 03:25 PM
Sometimes.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/26, 03:34 PM
Charlie apparently is a prostitute sometimes, but I am not. It seems like an honorable way to make a living to me. It certainly makes more sense than living in poverty off a minimum wage job which nobody will respect for, and which won't pay the bills. I'm not sure where the dignity is in abject poverty.
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 03:40 PM
But prostituion is illegal isn't it? So you are saying that you have no objections to living your life illegally in order to feed your family? So if you found out that a proffesional thief robbed your house because that is they only way that they could feed their family, you would not have a problem with it? I think the best thing to do would be to give your kids up to foster care until you are able to care for them instead of bringing them up in a world of prostitution and drugs etc...
So as I was initially saying the act of sexual intercourse with a man is not damaging to a woman in my eyes, however, if the act was prostitution I think that I would not want to be involved with her. Does it devalue her? Yes. Is it because she previously had sex? No. It is the fact that she could have a disease.
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/26, 03:50 PM
I'm not sure you can compare prostitution in which participation is voluntary for all parties, and a crime which has a legally recognized victim. Who is the victim in the crime of prostitution? If there is no victim has there been a crime?
So we are back to sex as a business transaction is damaging but sex in the context of relationships is not. That's an okay way to be and most of the world is that way.
Is this similar to the claim that a wife offers wholesale sex and a prostitute offers retail sex? If anyone "gets" anything from the relationship, whether it's a home and family or $50, why is one prostitution and the other not? Philosophical questions sometimes never have a final answer because answers only lead to more questions.
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 03:54 PM
just because a chapter in our government made a thing illegal doesn't necessarily make it bad. In 1900 there were 200 murders in our country. Most drugs were legal. Today I'd much rather see money spent for treatment on the drug problem than have them illegal and jail as our only remedy.
If congress has its way, supplements as we know them could disappear.
I think the prostitution thing devalues both parties but don't know why it's illegal.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/26, 04:01 PM
Although the law would be a good arguement if it were universal, it is not. In the state of Nevada, and I do know that Anni does not live in Nevada, prostitution is a legal buisness licensed and regulated by the state. So given the right area, prostitution can be legally practiced. On the other hand, I am not sure that stealing is legal anywhere, but I certainly could be wrong.
About your question Anni. That is a tough one.
I am not sure that sex in any amount pollutes women. In the root of the matter, unfortunately, is the genetic propensity for selection. I think when one looks at mammals in the wild, it is the job of the female to select the gene pool and the male to propagate the gene pool. In some ways this may have led to the cultural ideas behind polygamy, and women being considered under the concept of land rights. Men on the whole want to propagate their line against any other males line and don't want any cross conatmination.
However, I should suspect that we wish to see ourselves greater than mammals of the jungle. Therefore, in this day an age there has to be a realization that sexual pleasure is a fundamental part of the human above and beyond the necessity to recreate. Therefore, if we buy that men and women are equal than we should allow them the same sexual freedoms.
To that extent I say that now amount of sex soils a woman implicitly.
However, the question then refers to prostitution. Prostitution in it's purest form is sex for money, however, I would like to broaden the definition a little first to bring me back to my point. I would consider prostitution doing something in dissonance with your own being in order to make money.
That would mean that the man who decides to go against his ethical grain for the greater gain of money is in fact prostituting himself to the payer.
In that aspect I think that prostitution does soil the being in that it damages the moral character of the person involved. However, prostitution as I defined it does not include all sex for money.
I photographed a woman once that was a prostitute in Nevada. She had a Master's degree in accounting, was finished having her children, and truly just wanted to have the experience. When I spoke to her I did not feel that she had compromised anything to be where she was or to do what she had done. I in that event did not find her to be soiled. However, I would not choose to date her, because her moral grain did not flow with mine. (I hope that makes sense, I could see the good in her and the truth to herself, but would choose to not be in a permanent relationship with her).
Well, I am not sure if that is the best answer, but that ist he best that I can do at this moment.
Daniel Love
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2004/10/26, 04:07 PM
I can tell you why it is illegal. Go to Philadelphia, New York, Washington D.C., Boston, or any other big city. Go to a drug infested neigborhood and look at all of the prostitutes that are walking the street. The majority of them are prostitutes to support their drug habits; not their children. A legalized brothel is one thing, street prostitution should not be legal, it should be prevented.
I still would not want to have a RELATIONSHIP with a former prostitute. I might let her give me hand relief but that is it.
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/26, 04:10 PM
anyone, male or female, can contract a sexually transmitted disease regardless of if they buy/sell the sex, so is that really the issue? a 15-year-old having sex for the first time can catch the same disease as a 42-year-old prostitute who has been peddling her body her entire life. disease is not the issue here - not prostituting yourself is no exemption from catching an std.
furthermore, not that i'm saying it's a good thing, but prostitution is not illegal in all places, so think about it in that context.
now, traditionally in the eyes of the world, sex is seen as something damaging to women while it is something that is empowering to men. it goes back to the timeless double standard of "if a man sleeps with 100 women, he is a conqueror; if a woman sleeps with 100 men, she is a slut." the value of a female virgin has always been something held highly. how many times in mythology do you come across an instance of requesting a sacrificial virgin? it is seen as something sacred and pure, so naturally, when that is taken away, the gut instinct of society is to devalue that woman.
back to the prostitution issue: no one, regardless of their sex, should be forced to sell their body to support their family. the fact that someone can put an hourly price tag on the worth of another person's sexuality is outrageous to me. in that sense, prostitution is damaging to a woman (or to a man, as the case may be,) because it caps her self-worth at whatever someone is willing to pay for her.
i must stop now because i am getting riled up.
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i wish you ill, ice-t.
margarine is a liar who announces, "i am butter!"
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2004/10/26, 04:13 PM
How can disease not be an issue? Anybody can go out and get into a car wreck, but a race car driver is more likely to actually get into one. Anybody can get knocked in the head and have their speech permanently slurred, but a boxer is more likely to actually have his speech slurred. Anyone can get an STD, but a prostitute is more likely to actually contract one. How can it not be an issue?
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/26, 04:17 PM
because, as a rule, prostitutes are not the only people who can have stds. in fact, i do believe that prostitues get checked regularly at clinics as a habit of their trade. a woman who sleeps with a "platoon" of men is probably at a greater risk than the prostitute.
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i wish you ill, ice-t.
margarine is a liar who announces, "i am butter!"
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2004/10/26, 04:18 PM
I think STD's are an issue, but not in the manner of can the particular prostitute contract one, but the community health issue of how many contacts are had and possibility for spread. Although this is a similar issue among sexually promiscuous people in general, I think that the general contact web may be larger with a prostitute than with most promiscous un-professional members of the species.
Just a thought.
Daniel
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2004/10/26, 04:19 PM
I would venture to say that a prostitute has been with a battalion of men. What kind of prostitutes are we talking about here? Does anyone care to take a trip with me to Philly so that I can show you what a prostitute looks like? We are talking about drug addicted, disease infected women.
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/26, 04:21 PM
on that note, how do you know that one of the "platoon" of men that a woman has slept with hasn't also been with a prostitute? if we're going to zero in on one group of people as being higher risk for stds, that's fine, but you can't say that just because a woman has slept with a high number of men and isn't a prostitute, she isn't at risk for a disease. that is not the way of the world.
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i wish you ill, ice-t.
margarine is a liar who announces, "i am butter!"
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2004/10/26, 04:26 PM
You are telling me that a prostitute who is probably a drug addict is not at a higher risk for HIV and other diseases than a girl who sleeps around?
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/26, 04:28 PM
and for the record, when i made my first statement, i wasn't saying that disease isn't an issue in the broader sexual context. i was saying that anyone can have a disease regardless of whether they are a prostitute or just promiscuous.
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i wish you ill, ice-t.
margarine is a liar who announces, "i am butter!"
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2004/10/26, 04:30 PM
she might be, but not all prostitutes are drug addicts. you're making generalizations. there are always exceptions to what you consider the rule.
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Quoting from hecdarec:
You are telling me that a prostitute who is probably a drug addict is not at a higher risk for HIV and other diseases than a girl who sleeps around?
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i wish you ill, ice-t.
margarine is a liar who announces, "i am butter!"
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2004/10/26, 05:05 PM
I still think the basic question still comes down to who is guiltier, the prostitue or the john? It takes two to tango. I don't think it should be up to the state to determine whether issues like drugs, gambling, prostitution or abortion for that matter should be a crime. They are personal choices.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/26, 06:11 PM
Really good discussion guys. However, we are a little off topic. Let's revisit the statement:
Women (in American culture) are valued NOT for their sexual experience, but for their "innocence." The act of sexual intercourse with a man is seen as damaging to a woman in most contexts.
Remember that in order to truly consider the statement critically, we must walk all the way around it as though it were a work of art. If we only the view the statement from one side and bring to the table our preconceived notions, true analysis and therefore critical thinking, are not possible.
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 06:39 PM
K movies often help me to put things into perspective. In the '50's musical Robert Preston who was a slightly morally challanged door to door salesman but described himself as a "bang beat knicker knicking every time a bullseye salesman" sang a song about the sadder but wiser girl for me. The implication was that a woman with certain life experiences was more to his liking.
I agree. I prefer an experienced partner in almost all of lifes adventures and married one. Nothing she did before we met was a deal breaker.
Anni, I think your mention of prostitution in the first post changed the point of the actual statement to be discussed. So answering the question I think it goes both ways. Seems a little hypocritical for a sexually experienced man to look down on a sexually experienced woman. OTOH a virginal male may not feel that way.
In another favorite movie two villains were discussing the heroine riding her horse and that she wasn't riding side saddle!!!! Scandelous!!!1 Villain one remarked that he admired the way she handled that horse. Villain two said "yep me too but would
you marry one who didnt??" Before villain two could answer the hero sauntered up and said "yep"!!
I guess it depends on whether you're a good guy.:big_smile:
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/26, 06:41 PM
Sorry, the 50's musical was "The Music Man".
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/26, 06:52 PM
I apologize for any confusion. The discussion in class began as whether or not prostitution was moral. From that we came to discuss whether sex with a man polluted a woman, etc. etc.
I had completely forgotten about "The music man" and the sadder but wiser girl. Excellent point and an excellent flick.
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 07:07 PM
i think if we were to get anywhere with this question we would have to break it down into many smaller questions, and use the rule 'ceteris paribus' or 'evertying else remaining the same'.
Now if we are content to continue exploring the subject further with endless trails of questions to take, then approaching it with preconceived notions is damned near impossible. Because no matter what, it would influence our decisions on why we would think it damaging or not.
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2004/10/26, 07:21 PM
This is a good point Tex, and one that my professor constantly restates: Philosophy is logic.
So using only logic, how can sex be polluting to women in one context but not in another? The logical answer is that it can't because the question is not degrees of pollution. I think...
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 07:29 PM
So, this is a discussion, and I will voice my opinion on the the actual question of "Is prostitution moral" My answer is no. I think sex is something to be shared between 2 individuals who are committed to each other, and not used simply to satisfy a sexual need, or to reap any monetary gains from. Put in the context of needing to be a prostitute to fend for my children, would I do it? In all honesty No, but if I did, would I feel guilty and slimy?? Yes. So there's my take, I don't think it's moral, and I think it all depends on your personal morals as to how you will view it.
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2004/10/26, 07:59 PM
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Quoting from goodoldtex:
use the rule 'ceteris paribus' or 'evertying else remaining the same'.
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How long have you waited to trot that one out Tex?:big_smile::big_smile:
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/26, 09:02 PM
well in middle school i thought i'd never be using latin...ever.
now 6 years later that phrase came up dealing with economic strategies and how we view trends in the marketplace...
amen for college.
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2004/10/26, 09:22 PM
Ditto
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/26, 09:26 PM
Never knew that was Latin, Anni.
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Quoting from anni313:
Ditto
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/27, 09:30 AM
As far as prostitution is concerned, I don't think it is immoral if both parties involved are there of their own free will. In this situation it is a victimless crime.
This is a very different situation to those coerced by poverty or drug addiction into prostitution.
Different people are always going to value different aspects of women. Some will value their intelligence, some their sexual experience or lack of it, and some will make a decision based on whether you do barbell shrugs or not!
From a personal standpoint, if someone is sleeping with a batallion, whether they are male or female, it does make me wonder why. I think it is usual for humans to form monogamous relationships and if people don't conform to that I do wonder if they have a problem forming relationships, regardless of whether they are male or female.
They are probably not devalued in my eyes, but I may scrutinise them more closely.
If, however, they have previously slept with a batllion, but have now settled down, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
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2004/10/27, 09:46 AM
What was the question?
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/27, 09:55 AM
Maybe we should have a new question each day.
"I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp."
Discuss.
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2004/10/27, 10:10 AM
I still want to know the number of people in a squad, platoon, company, regiment, batallion etc.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/27, 10:17 AM
13 people in a squad, 52 in a platoon, 200 in a company, 1000 in a battalion, 3000 in a regiment, 15,000 in a division. These are all rough estimates.
As far as the bowel movement, every morning at 9:00 am I sit on the toilet and move my bowels. Not much discussing about that.
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/27, 10:20 AM
Then I would have to draw the line at a regiment.
On the other thing I must be a pro because I frequently do "two a days".....one at 9AM and 1 at 5 PM.
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I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol
Charlie
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2004/10/27, 11:08 AM
I don't see prostatution as immoral in it's self. The way some enter into the profession is. STD's are not part of the question, they are a risk in any sexual relationship. If a woman or man chooses to preform sexually or phisicaly in sports or mentally in buisness for money there is little differance.
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I will get to it as soon as I am done lifting.
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2004/10/28, 08:14 AM
Let's visit what morality actually is.
Morality relates to duty or obligation; pertaining to those intentions and actions of which right and wrong, virtue and vice, are predicated....relating to the practice, manners, or conduct of people as social beings in relation to each other, as respects right and wrong, so far as they are properly subject to rules.
Note the last four words of that...PROPERLY SUBJECT TO RULES.
So, who made the rules?
This is why there is no right or wrong to this statement. The rules of morality are different everywhere and for every person.
I was raised with the belief that selling your body for money is wrong...the rules for this morality being set by my religion. I still think it is wrong, therefore, immoral.
The topic of prostitution to feed your hungry babies has been introduced...I believe it is respectable, but still immoral. The two are not the same.
As far as the virtue thing, well, like it or not...the majority of our society still places much value on virtue.
Kind of like cars....all that is required is that it runs, but the value of any given vehicle is graded highest by good condition and low milage....you know, it depreciates as soon as it's driven off the lot and downward from there.
The first time I met Hector I compared myself to a red mustang, slightly used, but in great condition.:big_smile:
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A morning without coffee is like something without something else....unknown
If you can't find a man, raise yourself one...bigandrew
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2004/10/28, 01:26 PM
I reserve the right to be somewhat uncertain....I have very rigid values and morals, they seem to have grown stronger as I raised my children and matured myself, applying the values and morals my parents taught me, and thus I am convicted by what I believe and yet there may be circumstances that could cause me to fluctuate somewhat, though I am most likely to still come back to what I believe for that is what makes us individuals, we can't possibly all believe in the same set of morals and values (ask my X-husband). And still yet, I would never wish to force my opinion or my beliefs upon another nor tell them they were wrong to believe in what they believe...
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Veda
MISERY IS OPTIONAL
***When you are up to your ears in trouble, try using the part that is not submerged.
***The difference between a dream and a goal is a plan.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!
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2004/10/28, 02:31 PM
Philosophical problems involve questions about the meaning, truth, and logical connections of fundamental ideas that resist solution by the empirical sciences. A fundamental idea is one upon which the truth of many other, more specific, ideas depends and the idea is generally pervasive. Philosophical problems involve questions of meaning, rational defensibility and logical relations.
Dfly has graciously brought up the subject of what is morality:
Morality relates to duty or obligation; pertaining to those intentions and actions of which right and wrong, virtue and vice, are predicated....relating to the practice, manners, or conduct of people as social beings in relation to each other, as respects right and wrong, so far as they are properly subject to rules.
This statement doesn't really say what morality is although it tells very plainly what it's used for. So what is morality? Is it something we can test in a lab or is it a strong belief?
Our morality is something we generally acquire from the significant people in our lives, it's our belief system. So if we believe that accepting something, whatever that might be, in exchange for sex is morally wrong, what exactly are we saying is bad? Is the giver of the thing bad for giving the cash, gift, whatever? Why? Is the receiver of the cash, gift, whatever, bad? Why? Is it the thing being given/taken that is bad? Why? If it isn't the actual exchange or barter we object to, are we objecting to the sex? If we are, does that mean that sex is intrinsically bad? Why?
I don't know the answers either but it's fun to kick it around.
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/29, 09:59 AM
At what point does it stop being prostitution and start being a relationship? People such as Anna Nicole Smith who marry into money not for love in my opinion are just as bad.
On the issue of prostitution im a bit undecided, i have no problem with prostitution or prostitutes as long as it is done in the right environment, sex is a commodity and if women (or men) are willing to sell it that is there choice. At the same time though i dont think i could be in a relationship with a prostitute because there could be no intimacy really and im kind of the jealous type.
The mans a stud, woman is a slut issue comes into play here also, as in the eyes of society men are boosted up by sleeping with many people whereas women are spat on.
just my two cents
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2004/10/29, 12:21 PM
I would give a man oral until completion for a million dollars. Is that prostitution?
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I have a bowel movement every morning at 9:00am sharp.
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2004/10/29, 01:26 PM
Sounds reasonable to me Hec
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Anni
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Hard work must have killed somebody
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2004/10/29, 03:23 PM
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Quoting from hecdarec:
I would give a man oral until completion for a million dollars. Is that prostitution?
Yes
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